Charities Bill 2007: Committee Stage - 4th December 2008
Section 1 agreed to.
SECTION 2.
An Leas-Chathaoirleach: Amendments Nos. 5, 30, 32 and 33 are related to amendment No.
1. Is it agreed that amendments Nos. 1, 5, 30, 32 and 33 be discussed together? Agreed.
Government amendment No. 1:
In page 8, subsection (1), between lines 3 and 4, to insert the following:
“ “Act of 1998” means the Education Act 1998;”.
Minister of State at the Department of Community, Rural and Gaeltacht Affairs (Deputy
John Curran): Before discussing the amendments, in an effort to be helpful I wish to make
some opening comments. The Second Stage debate took place in the House recently and a
number of points were raised. Some of them will be addressed in the amendments before the
House today. However, a couple of other items were raised, either in this House or in the Da´ il,
and I wish to inform Members of my intentions in regard to them.
The first is an approach to addressing the issue of pre-signed mass cards.
Senator Jerry Buttimer: Is there a copy of the Minister’s speech available?
Deputy John Curran: It is not a speech. I am making it up as I go along.
Senator David Norris: As long as it is positive news.
Senator Jerry Buttimer: It is a little like the Government in general at present.
Deputy John Curran: Pre-signed mass cards have been an issue for some time. We are in
consultation with the Attorney General and I hope I can bring forward an amendment in
that regard on Report Stage. There is an Opposition amendment on the same issue down for
debate today.
Following the Second Stage contributions regarding public representatives being precluded
from membership of the new authority, I expect to make recommendations and changes in that
regard on Report Stage. On foot of legal advice I will propose an increase in the maximum
permitted membership of the new authority to enable it to fulfil its wide range of statutory
functions. I also propose to tighten up some of the references to terrorism and terrorist activities.
Those amendments will be brought forward on Report Stage. I mention this in order that
Members will know our intentions regarding some of the key issues that have been raised in
the House.
Amendments Nos. 1, 5, 30, 32 and 33 are proposed on foot of discussions with the Department
of Education and Science and the Office of the Attorney General. At present, educational
bodies such as schools, students’ councils, parents’ associations and vocational education committees
are subject to oversight by the Department of Education and Science and, on occasion,
by other bodies, such as the Committee of Public Accounts. The ethos of the Charities Bill is
not to impose a significant additional administrative burden on any organisation. I propose
that educational bodies be required to register and provide an annual report to the charity
regulatory authority every year but that they be exempt from the audit and accounting provisions
of the Bill. Many of these educational bodies are already required to keep and submit
accounts to other bodies and it will be within the remit of the authority under section 53 to
request these and any other information it requires from these bodies where the need arises.
In keeping with the graduated approach to regulation, I recognise that many charities are
extremely small, with limited resources to enable them to comply with the requirements of the
Bill. In the case of such charities with an income or expenditure of less than \10,000 per annum,
I am providing that they be exempted from the accounts and audit or examination provisions
of the Bill. It would be unreasonable to expect a charity of that size to produce examined
accounts although, as with the educational bodies, they will be required to produce an annual
report, which may also contain financial information. Bear in mind that the authority is empow-
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ered under section 53 to request information from any charity, even small charities, where it
considers it appropriate.
I believe these amendments strike an appropriate balance and provide fair and equitable
oversight, while minimising the compliance burden for the organisations concerned.
Senator David Norris: I have no difficulty with these amendments, but I wish to comment
briefly on something the Minister of State, Deputy Curran, said. He referred to the fact that
he had addressed the most significant matters raised in the House. However, he did not deal
with what most people would agree is by far the most significant matter, that is, the exclusion
of human rights under the legislation. Most people who spoke on this issue hold passionate
views. The Minister of State consulted various groups and listened to the views of the
Parliamentary Counsel. This morning I received notification from the Law Society of Ireland
that it is now seriously concerned. The wording it suggested for an amendment, upon which I
was briefed by virtually all national organisations dealing with human rights, is identical to the
wording of the amendment I tabled. The Law Society of Ireland has strongly supported this. I
am very disappointed this did not occur to the Minister of State when he referred to discussing
the most significant issues and preparing amendments along those lines with an indication he
would agree to them. Perhaps it is simply an oversight, but I very much hope the human rights
provision will be agreed to in light of the forthcoming argument.
Deputy John Curran: The issues to which I specifically referred are not dealt with by way of
amendment today. I was signalling my intention that they would be presented later. I am
conscious there are issues and amendments related to human rights and it is my intention to
deal with those at that stage. I was signalling some of the issues raised, for which we do not
have amendments today, to indicate to people these issues were not being ignored. I put this
on record to be helpful to the Senator.
Senator David Norris: I thank the Minister of State and I appreciate his comments. Other
amendments will, I am sure, come to the House and I certainly will move an amendment in a
later section.
Senator Brian O´ Domhnaill: I call for a suspension as a vote has been called in the Da´ il.
Sitting suspended at 12.20 p.m. and resumed at 12.40 p.m.
An Leas-Chathaoirleach: We will resume Committee Stage debate on the Charities Bill 2007.
We were dealing with amendment No.1 before the suspension of the House
Senator David Norris: On a point of order, I understand that the Minister of State had to go
to the Da´ il Chamber for a vote, but that is outrageous. The Da´ il is dealing with a Bill upon
which there are likely to be a considerable number of votes today and it is not acceptable that
we should have to suspend business each time. I understand this has arisen because of a refusal
to pair on the part of the Opposition. As far as I am concerned, it is very bad political behaviour
for an Opposition to refuse to pair a Minister of State in those circumstances. In that context,
I do not propose to agree to any further suspensions of this House and I will call a vote
if necessary.
When the Minister of State is in the Da´ il casting his vote, we can vote here as well. I am fed
up with this kind of nonsense which is causing unnecessary delays. We had rubbish on the
Order of Business which delayed the Minister of State’s arrival in the House and now we face
the prospect of him having to leave the Chamber several times. I find this to be a very imprac-
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[Senator David Norris.]
tical and regrettable way of doing business, although I am not blaming the Minister of State
for that. I know that he must vote——
An Leas-Chathaoirleach: This is something which the Senator can take up with the Committee
on Procedure and Privileges.
Senator David Norris: I most certainly will and I will call votes throughout the day.
Senator Jerry Buttimer: I indicated earlier that I wished to respond to the Minister’s opening
remarks. I welcome the Minister of State and assure him that Fine Gael will not be opposing
the Bill in principle. Indeed, my party has worked with the Minister of State on this legislation.
I pay tribute to the officials in the Department of Community, Rural and Gaeltacht Affairs for
their courtesy and briefing.
In light of what the Minister of State said in his opening remarks regarding his intention to
introduce extensive amendments on Report Stage and that thinking on the Bill is ongoing, will
he consider deferring the Report Stage debate until after the Christmas recess?
Deputy John Curran: No, because the amendments on Report Stage to which I referred have
already been clearly identified. There is nothing in them which we have not already dealt with,
for example, the mass card issue. The amendments do not contain anything of a substantial
nature that has not already been addressed. They have been scrutinised by legal advisers in the
Attorney General’s office and I am confident they will be ready and circulated in good time.
With a view to being helpful to Senators, when those amendments are finalised my officials
will be available to meet any Members who wish to discuss them or clarify any issues.
Senator Jerry Buttimer: I would prefer not to divide the House on the substantive issue of
human rights and sport, upon which there does not seem to be a consensus. This is a good Bill
and Members on this side of the House recognise its importance and the need for regulation
in this area. However, it would be wrong to divide the House on the absence of human rights
in the Bill, which I still cannot comprehend.
An Leas-Chathaoirleach: We are not dividing the House at this stage.
Senator Jerry Buttimer: I appreciate that but I am pre-empting a division that will occur
later on the fundamental principles of the advancement of sport and of human rights. It would
be wrong to divide the House on such matters.
Amendment agreed to.
An Leas-Chathaoirleach: Amendments Nos. 2, 12, 22, 23, 26, 34, 36 and 52 are related and
may be discussed together.
Government amendment No. 2:
In page 8, subsection (1), to delete line 7 and substitute the following:
“ “body” includes, in relation to a trust in respect of which there is only one trustee,
that trustee;”.
Deputy John Curran: While it is unlikely that there are many, if any, single trustee charities,
on the basis of legal advice, amendment No. 2 amends the definition of “body” to cater for
such a scenario. Amendment No.12 is purely technical. The text to be removed is not considered
necessary, based on legal advice. Amendments Nos. 22, 23 and 34 are very similar and
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propose the use of the word “enactment” which has a broader legal meaning than the current
word “statute”. Amendment No. 26 is a drafting amendment to insert the word “and” after
“1977” to link paragraphs (a) and (b). Amendment No. 36 changes the reference in section
70(1)(b) from the “Minister for Enterprise, Trade and Employment” to the “Director of Corporate
Enforcement” as section 14 of the Company Law Enforcement Act 2001 transferred
responsibility from the Minister to the director.
I commend amendments Nos. 2, 12, 22, 23, 26, 34 and 36, but I cannot accept amendment
No. 52. Section 94 provides a reserve power for the Minister to regulate the manner and the
conduct of fundraising. My Department has been working in partnership with the sector over
the past two years to develop non-statutory codes of practice for charitable fundraising. The
principles for these codes of good practice have been published and discussions are taking place
at present regarding the implementation and monitoring of the codes. It is intended that the
reserve powers of the Minister to bring in a statutory regulation would only be invoked if the
non-statutory codes of practice prove ineffective. It would be totally contrary to this consultative
approach to compel the Minister to introduce statutory codes of practice which would be
the effect of accepting amendment No. 52. In that context, I cannot accept the amendment.
Amendment agreed to.
An Leas-Chathaoirleach: Amendments Nos. 3, 4 and 42 are related and may be discussed
together.
Government amendment No. 3:
In page 8, subsection (1), to delete lines 24 to 28 and substitute the following:
“(iii) none of the property of which is payable to the members of the body,”.
Deputy John Curran: Amendments Nos. 4 and 42 have emerged from interdepartmental
consultation relating to how a charity might act on dissolution. A fundamental principle of the
Bill as currently drafted is that a charity should apply all its property for the stated charitable
purpose, even when the charity is dissolved. In the course of the consultation, the possibility
emerged that some charities might not be bound under their constitutions, on dissolution, to
distribute the remaining property towards the charitable purpose. Under these two amendments,
which address the potential loophole, any such charity would have to obtain the consent
of the authority to pay any of the property to the members of the charity on dissolution of
the charity.
Amendment No. 3 is a technical amendment which is being inserted on legal advice to
ensure the definition of “charitable trust” in section 2 matches the definition of “charitable
organisation” in the same section. Under the existing wording, there is a variance that needs
to be addressed to ensure consistency.
Amendment agreed to.
An Leas-Chathaoirleach: Amendment No.4 has already been discussed with amendment
No. 3.
Government amendment No. 4:
In page 8, subsection (1), to delete lines 31 and 32 and substitute the following:
“ “charitable trust” means a trust—
(a) established for a charitable purpose only,
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Charities Bill 2007: 4 December 2008. Committee Stage
(b) established under a deed of trust that requires the trustees of the trust to apply all
of the property (both real and personal) of the trust in furtherance of that purpose except
for moneys expended in the management of the trust, and
(c) none of the property of which is payable to the trustees of the trust;”.
Amendment agreed to.
An Leas-Chathaoirleach: Amendment No. 5 has already been discussed with amendment
No. 1.
Government amendment No. 5:
In page 9, subsection (1), between lines 22 and 23, to insert the following:
“ “education body” means—
(a) a vocational education committee established by section 7 of the Vocational Education
Act 1930,
(b) a recognised school within the meaning of the Act of 1998,
(c) a management committee established for the purposes of section 37 of the Act of
1998,
(d) a parents’ association established in accordance with section 26 of the Act of 1998,
(e) a student council established in accordance with section 27 of the Act of 1998,
(f) an institution of higher education within the meaning of the Higher Education Authority
Act 1971 (amended by section 52 of the Institutes of Technology Act 2006);”.
Amendment agreed to.
An Leas-Chathaoirleach: Amendments Nos, 6, 10 and 41 are related and may be discussed
together.
Senator Jerry Buttimer: I move amendment No.6:
In page 9, to delete lines 38 and 39.
Amendment No. 6 proposes to delete “(c) an approved body of persons within the meaning of
section 235 of the Taxes Consolidation Act 1997,”. This section of the Taxes Consolidation Act
refers to bodies established for and existing for the sole purpose of promoting athletic or
amateur games or sports and therefore prevents them from obtaining charitable status. The
rationale behind the amendment is to ensure that amateur sporting bodies are not prevented
from applying for charitable status under this legislation. In my meetings with sporting organisations
I have found that there is some concern that the current exclusion of sporting bodies
under the legislation will place the future of amateur sports in Ireland in jeopardy, particularly
given the current economic circumstances. There is uncertainty about statutory Government
funding, on which many organisations depend, along with charitable support and bequests.
Sporting bodies should be allowed to apply for charitable status on the basis that they fulfil
the legal criteria for charitable purpose under the legislation, which includes any purpose that
is of benefit to the community. As the Minister knows and as I know, sporting organisations
of all hues, particularly small, community-based organisations, play a key role in the advancement
of communities and in health promotion, including disease prevention and the tackling
of obesity, which has become part of our culture. They also play a part in tackling social
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exclusion, promoting volunteerism and generally advancing community welfare. I pay tribute
to the Federation of Irish Sports, the sporting umbrella body, which does a lot of great work.
Let us boil down the case for this amendment. We have precedent for such a provision in
UK law, from which much of our law is taken. The charities legislation in England, Wales and
Scotland include such a provision, as does the Bill currently going through the Northern Ireland
Assembly. I am concerned that if sporting organisations are precluded from having charitable
status, they may be prevented from accessing philanthropic fund-raising streams. The argument
will be made that it can be dealt with by reliefs provided under other legislation but, as the
Minister knows, tax relief is only available on donations made to certain sporting bodies for
the funding of capital projects which have ministerial approval.
Of particular concern is the current economic climate, as there is pressure on Exchequer
funding and we have not yet had an announcement about the sports capital programme. We
cannot expect sporting bodies to exist solely on funding from the Department of Arts, Sport
and Tourism or from some county and city councils. In my own city of Cork, Cork City Council,
of which I am a former member, established a sports capital grant for clubs. However, that is
now under pressure due to the current economic circumstances. Clubs must have the capacity
to raise funds by other means.
The Minister of State, on Second Stage, made the point that it was not his intention to
expand or dilute the current charities regime. If I understood him correctly, he asserted that
the primary purpose of this Bill was to encapsulate and codify existing laws in the area of
charities. Why are we now excluding sport from the scope of this Bill? We are bringing in new
legislation which represents a clean slate and a new beginning for all. The legal position as of
today is that sports clubs, which are doing valuable work and are of benefit to the community,
are not precluded from seeking charitable status. Under this legislation, that will change significantly.
The amendments before us are intended to provide a level playing field for all organisations.
On one level we have a focus on bricks and mortar, while on the human level the focus
is gone or diluted.
I accept the argument that there are different taxation regimes available under the Finance
Acts and so on. However, the majority of sporting bodies around Ireland cannot avail of any
tax reliefs to assist their organisations. If we are to strive for consistency in the Bill we should
include, in the interest of equity, sports clubs as bodies that can have charitable status. We are
not doing that, and I do not know why.
We hear from Government about the importance of community involvement, social cohesion
and healthy lifestyles. Those things are promoted by sport. Last weekend we had the provincial
semi-finals and finals. The Minister of State is involved with his GAA club. Senator O´ Murchu´
is involved in sport, as are other Senators here. I do not mean to be inflammatory by saying
this, but we are discriminating against sport, which is of major importance to the fabric of Irish
society. As I said, bricks and mortar are being looked after, but people are not. That is a flaw
in the legislation. A sports body can obtain tax relief on the construction of a hall but not on
the employment of a coach or philanthropic donations.
I understand the Minister has received advice from the Office of the Attorney General and
that the Revenue Commissioners and the Department of Finance have issues with the loss of
revenue to the Exchequer if sports bodies are permitted to come within the scope of this
legislation. However, if we include sport under the legislation, it will allow sporting bodies to
attract money which is at present going to other charitable organisations and which will have
an ongoing beneficial effect for the Exchequer. I hope the Minister will reconsider this. I made
it clear in my remarks that we do not want to divide on this Bill, because it is a good Bill.
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[Senator Jerry Buttimer.]
However, there is an issue with sporting bodies. I hope what I have said here will move us
forward in this regard.
Senator Dominic Hannigan: The problem with the clause as currently drafted is that it codifies
the exclusion, for ever, of any sports club from the possibility of claiming charitable status.
As Senator Buttimer said, that is not really the spirit the Minister of State expressed on Second
Stage last week when he said he did not intend to dilute or expand the current charities regime.
The provision seems to codify into law the exclusion of sports on a permanent basis. We ask
him to reconsider this clause.
With regard to amendment No. 10, we would like to see the extension of tax reliefs to include
not just capital donations but also non-capital donations.
1 o’clock
Senator Ro´ na´n Mullen: I rise to support what Senators Buttimer and Hannigan have already
said. I do not intend to repeat their points but instead to note that I was in this House when
the Broadcasting Bill was debated and I remember clearly that much was made by the Government
of the fact that there would be measures to prevent the advertising of junk
food at certain times. There was a very obvious reason for the Government’s
seeking to highlight that issue. It showed a degree of practicality. We in this
country are rightly concerned about the health of our citizens, particularly our younger people.
I cannot understand, therefore, why we are proposing to specifically exclude sporting bodies
from being able to enjoy charitable status. At the very least one would hope we could include,
as per amendment No. 10, the advancement of sport in the definition of “charitable purpose”.
At the very least, we should remove the exclusion of sporting bodies. It is important to note
that this is not specifically or exclusively about tax. A certain amount of these matters can be
dealt with in the tax legislation. A relatively small number of sporting bodies are engaged in
capital projects and therefore able to enjoy charitable status in respect of donations for such
projects. Many sporting bodies great and small undertake another kind of activity. It could be
small things like being able to avail of computers for schools. These may not sound like big
undertakings when they are being discussed in this Chamber but in practice they make a big
difference. The proposed legislation will deny sporting organisations the legitimacy that would
derive from an improved regulatory regime and this is folly. Statistics show that people who
practise sports are said to be 14 years younger in health terms. I wish I qualified for that kind
of designation.
We need to treat this issue seriously and we need to be serious about sport. We often
complain that we do not do as well as we would like to in major sporting events such as the
Olympic Games and we rightly celebrate the achievements of people like Pa´draig Harrington
but it is at the basic, practical level that we really show our attitude towards sport and towards
the health of our nation’s citizens. We constantly communicate platitudes about how great our
sports people are and how much they contribute to social capital but where is the beef? The
beef has to be here in this Bill.
I am co-sponsor of one of the amendments dealing with the exclusion of sport because that
needs to change at the very least. As per the other recommendation, we should specifically
name sporting bodies as coming within the scope of the legislation, as qualifying for charitable
status.
I am broadly in support of people’s concerns about human rights although we might need to
qualify that a little. I refer to organisations purporting to promote human rights but which
would not promote a vision of human rights consistent with the Constitution. We need to be
clear on that point but otherwise I would have no problem with it. I make that point to empha-
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sise that there can be no doubt about sport because sport unites everybody, not just in terms
of our ability to celebrate but in terms of our health. I ask the Minister of State to take a
generous view in that context. I do not know whether the Minister of State has commented
on amendment No. 41 as I was not in the Chamber so I will hold my fire on that one for
the moment.
Senator David Norris: I support my colleagues. I spoke at some little length on this matter
on Second Stage. Senator Hannigan had it absolutely right, particularly with regard to the fact
that the Minister of State said it was not his intention to expand or dilute. However, he has
done so because sport previously had a capacity to raise funds. It was not precluded but now
it is specifically precluded so there is a limitation process going on.
All my colleagues raised the issue of capital expenditure and I made the point on Second
Stage with regard to sports instructors. I am not sure if my colleagues have made the point
while I was out of the Chamber but this seems to be discriminatory in terms of tax relief
because only the larger bodies such as the GAA and the IRFU will be in a position to attract
this tax relief because they will be the ones that are involved in large capital expenditure such
as for new stadia and they have already benefited considerably. However, I would be concerned
about the smaller, local organisations because they will be completely whacked. They will be
deprived on both fronts. The Minister of State’s party used to talk a good deal about the plain
people of Ireland but it is the plain people, the ordinary people, the people in the little local
areas who will be damaged by this legislation and that is very regrettable.
I strongly support this amendment. I refer to the briefing document about which I have a
reservation. It deals with the stinginess of the Department of Finance which is legendary and
trying to reassure the Department of Finance by saying that by including sports within this Bill,
it would be a means of attracting money which is currently going to other charitable organisations.
This is the weakest argument I have ever heard. I do not want charities poaching from
each other and I do not think we should seek to reassure the Department of Finance that, for
example, a local hurling, football, camogie, hockey or rugby team or any other kind of team
sport can get money that would otherwise go to Concern, Hope, Tro´ caire or such groups. That
is a very weak argument and I do not like it. The argument may appeal to the Department of
Finance but it sure as hell does not appeal to me.
Senator Labhra´s O´ Murchu´ : I look forward to the Minister of State’s response to these
amendments because I know he is keenly conscious of the importance of the sports organisations,
their value within and the contribution they make to communities. One could go so far
as to say that without many of these sports organisations, communities would certainly be very
impoverished. They also play a very distinctive social role because it is through those organisations
that young people are gainfully occupied and they learn team spirit which often spills
over into other aspects of community activity. Anti-social behaviour exists on the periphery of
life and sport helps to ensure that this behaviour does not expand. The focus on sporting fitness
can help keep young minds from thinking about alcohol and drugs. A person who wants to be
supremely fit will not succumb to abuse of alcohol or other types of drugs. All the points made
regarding the unifying effects of sport are important. Anybody who has seen their local club
advancing in a championship and sees a whole village or town following that team will know
that the team becomes the focus of the community and the focus of the very essence of community.
This is an important value to have and if this value is removed, there is less cohesion
within the community. Sports make a contribution to the economy because hurleys and sports
gear must be produced and sold.
It is a different issue in the case where sport has become a commercial pursuit. They are
then charging for their services and are able to provide themselves with whatever finances are
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[Senator Labhra´s O´ Murchu´ .]
necessary. It is important to make that distinction. I hope the Minister of State in his reply will
be able to point to sections of the Bill which show there is accommodation for some of the
points raised.
Deputy John Curran: Prior to the publication of the Bill there was an extensive consultation
period. The question of sporting bodies attracting charitable status did not emerge at that stage
as a matter of any concern. The issue of sporting bodies being eligible for charitable status only
emerged in recent weeks and this is surprising in some respects. I have a great appreciation of
and involvement in sport. I am not disputing the positive impact it can have. There are many
local sporting organisations which I personally support and know their impact. Whether it
should be regarded as a charitable purpose is another matter.
Approved bodies within the meaning of section 235 of the Taxes Consolidation Act 1997
are not to be regarded as charitable organisations for the purposes of the Charities Bill. The
advancement of sport is not included as a charitable purpose. The Bill seeks to retain the
charitable purposes that have developed in common law over many years which form the basis
for decisions made by the Revenue Commissioners on eligibility for charitable tax exemptions.
The advancement of sport is not currently a charitable purpose in this context. The Bill does
not seek to expand or narrow charitable purposes, which adding the advancement of sport
would do, but to maintain the status quo.
As I stated on Second Stage, I do not believe considering the inclusion of sporting bodies as
charities on the principle basis that a particular advantage might accrue to them under the
taxation system is a sound rationale. This is especially the case when, under section 7, the
Revenue Commissioners alone have, and will continue to have, responsibility for granting tax
exemptions independently of any decision of the proposed charities regulatory authority.
Amendment No. 41 proposes an amendment to tax legislation. The Minister for Finance is
responsible for tax law and I could not accept that amendment in this House.
In recent days I have had significant contact from various sporting organisations on this
matter. Many of them felt the reason they wanted charitable status was because their tax
situation would be somewhat different. That is not the case. From a practical point of view, if
this amendment were accepted, sporting organisations which would fall under this regulation
would have to comply and submit reports and returns in a way they traditionally might not
have done.
Senator Hannigan claimed this was going to be the way for all and ever. That will not be the
case. This legislation does not aim to broaden or narrow the boundaries. There will be a
mandatory review of the legislation in five years in acknowledgement that what we are trying
to do is quite complex. If this amendment were accepted, the next step would be to define
what is a sports organisations with a public benefit. Is it, say, the darts team or the GAA club?
Having spoken to numerous sporting organisations, their primary concern is that the benefit
would be in tax law which this legislation will not address. As this legislation beds in over the
next five years before the mandatory review, there may well be substantial changes. Most
sporting organisations I have spoken to, including some of the larger ones, realise it is not
necessary for the tax benefit provision to be included in the charities legislation.
Senator Jerry Buttimer: We are embarking on a legislative process so the consultative process
is not binding on anyone. It would be unfair to cast the aspersion that some of the sporting
organisations came to this legislation late. Given that there is a mandatory review in five years,
what is wrong with inserting the amendments concerning the advancement of sport on the basis
that we are broadening the definition to include amateur sporting organisations and the smaller
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Charities Bill 2007: 4 December 2008. Committee Stage
groups to which Senator Norris referred? I have a fundamental concern for these groups. I am
not speaking for the umbrella organisations such as the FAI, the IRFU or the GAA because
the reports from Croke Park Teoranta last week made great reading. I am concerned about
amateur sporting organisations which are amateur in name only but professional in their output
and contribution to society.
The Minister of State must accept there is a chasm between what the Government, in the
general sense, provides and what these organisations take on. If one were to wait for the
Government to provide funding or facilities for sporting organisations to fill this chasm, it
would never be filled and we would have social disintegration. I say that as someone involved
in one of my local sporting organisations. Rather than divide the House on a good Bill, why
can we not provide for this now and review it after five years?
Senator Dominic Hannigan: I am glad to learn the Minister of State has been in contact with
many sports bodies. Some of them are coming quite late to the party and have just realised
this legislation is imminent. I have been receiving e-mails on this subject from sports bodies
over recent weeks. The most recent was three hours ago from the Federation of Irish Sports
which represents 60 bodies. It is still pushing for tax relief for non-capital schemes. I accept the
Minister of State and his officials have probably spoken to more sports organisations than I
have. However, I will reserve the right to table another amendment on Report Stage.
Senator Buttimer’s suggestion seems sensible. If this legislation is to be reviewed in five
years, we can remove this exclusion of sports bodies and see what way the land lies in five
years. If there is evidence it is not working, then it can be removed. It should be inserted now
and meet all our needs.
Senator Ro´ na´n Mullen: I agree with Senator Hannigan. The mere fact that organisations
have raised their concerns late in the day is hardly worth mentioning. The issues they have
raised must be addressed on their merits. Is the Minister of State assuring us this proposed
exclusion of sports bodies will not impact in any way on the current situation? This was the
reason for my tabling amendment No. 41. I anticipated what the Minister of State would say
on it, given that it relates to tax matters. Article 21 of the Constitution provides that Seanad
E´
ireann can merely make recommendations on money Bills. It seems we have gone a little too
far in excluding the possibility that we might make amendments that have financial
implications.
The Minister of State claims he cannot accept amendment No. 41 because it is matter for
tax legislation. The purpose of the amendment is to amend section 847A of the Taxes Consolidation
Act 1997 which provides relief in respect of donations which are made towards approved
capital projects for sports bodies. This amendment would amend the section to ensure
donations which are made in respect of non-capital projects can avail of the same tax relief as
those which are made for capital projects, while also being subject to the same conditions. The
Minister of State may take the view that there is a separate regime provided for sports and
that it is operating effectively. The reality is that section 847A of the Taxes Consolidated Act
1997 is a restrictive form of tax relief for sports organisations. One has the absurdity that tax
relief on donations is available in respect of a sports club which secures ministerial approval
or designation regarding the planned construction of a sports hall but that tax relief would
not be available in respect of donations towards the engagement of a sports coach. That is
clearly anomalous.
It is a matter concerning tax legislation but also concerning the question of whether and how
sports bodies should enjoy charitable status and get tax exemptions or relief in respect of
donations. I ask the Minister of State for the assurance that the proposed exclusion of sports
729
Charities Bill 2007: 4 December 2008. Committee Stage
[Senator Ro´ na´n Mullen.]
bodies will have an impact on how decisions are taken in respect of tax relief on donations to
sports clubs, in a way that is not happening at present. We have the opportunity to set a
standard. As Senator Hannigan has pointed out, this legislation will be reviewed in five years’
time so this logic applies in support of the deletion of the exclusion of sports bodies.
It is not just a matter of tax relief, it is a matter of giving legitimacy to sporting organisations
and to the activities they have under way, and to give them a profile and cachet when they
seek support of kinds other than those involving tax relief.
Senator Labhra´s O´ Murchu´ : The Minister of State has pointed out that the purpose of this
legislation is to update and upgrade what could be considered archaic legislation. It is evident
that all speakers appreciate what the Minister of State has done. He has listened carefully to
the many points that arose, not just in the consultative process but also in respect of points
that were parked over the years. The consultative process is an important element in the
legislative process. The consultation process for the Charities Bill was very broad and is
ongoing. It is significant that sporting bodies did not arise in this context but the five year
period gives us an opportunity, bearing in mind the number of years we have had to deal with
this situation, to bring the legislation to this point.
If we open up the possibility of seeking definition, we would have to rebuild a major part of
this Bill. Many charity organisations I spoke to are looking forward to the enactment of this as
quickly as possible. One of the great assurances given to us on Second Stage was that existing
charities will automatically transfer to the new regulatory body. This means that there will
be no backlog and existing charities will not have the same administrative requirements as
new charities.
The Minister of State makes the point that one might impose on existing sports bodies a
whole new administrative requirement to fulfil the obligations of the status. There are many
more issues involved than our idealistic one, which is the importance of sports bodies to the
community. They serve a major community purpose in this regard. The Minister of State will
consider what is proposed. I would not like to see this opening up, particularly when there has
been such cross-party support for the Bill in both Houses. I would not like to slow down the
process too much.
Deputy John Curran: I refer to amendment No. 41. It is not that, as a member of a sports
club, I would be unsympathetic to having a more favourable tax regimes but this is not the way
of doing it. It is a tax law that must be addressed. The Charities Bill makes the distinction
between the two separate functions of Revenue and the charity regulator. In this amendment
we do not have that.
Senator Hannigan referred to receiving e-mails up to recently. I received the same. I rang a
number of people to discuss this, ranging from chief executive officers and directors to development
officers on behalf of the organisations. I do not want to put down public consultation but
many organisations had not gone into this matter in depth. I spoke to people within organisations
and I tried to tease it out to see if we were missing something or if we were causing real
problems. I was concerned and I spoke to many people on this.
On the principled basis that a tax advantage might accrue under the taxation system, it is
not a sound rationale for inclusion of sporting bodies as charities. Senators have suggested that
we include them and then exclude them in five years’ time if it is not working out. If we remove
the automatic exclusion, every club in the country is obliged to register as a charity. With that
would come responsibilities that clubs do not have now. Sporting bodies would be subject to
additional regulatory scrutiny and would have reporting requirements they do not have now.
730
Charities Bill 2007: 4 December 2008. Committee Stage
We would impose this on them according to their activity. From the range of people I have
spoken to, at the moment the primary interest in this legislation is tax.
Senator Dominic Hannigan: Could it be an opt-in measure, where clubs choose to opt in?
Deputy John Curran: The legislation is such that activities that are advanced as charitable
purposes would have additional reporting responsibilities that do not apply at the moment.
Charities have been unregulated in the broad sense for a long time. We are trying to preserve
the status quo and to recognise the situation as it is, knowing that it is evolving. That is the
reason for the mandatory review within five years.
Senator Jerry Buttimer: Lest Senator O´ Murchu´ get it wrong about this side of the House,
we are fundamentally in favour of the principle of the Bill. Sport plays a key role in the
community but, under this legislation, we are precluding sport and sporting organisations from
seeking charitable status.
I have a question for the Minister of State, the answer to which I half know. I refer to the
status of Special Olympics Ireland, which organises the Special Olympics. The organisations
that come under that are charitable organisations, such as the Cope Foundation in Cork. Do
they have exemptions even though they are not capital projects? I would like the Minister of
State to clarify that.
The current legal position is that sporting bodies can apply for charitable status. By virtue
of this Bill being passed, they will be precluded. That is a form of discrimination.
Regarding the imposition of the reporting procedure, Bishopstown GAA club held its annual
general meeting last Friday night. We have a very good treasurer in Jim Collins, who is very
sincere in what he does. We sent our treasurer’s report to accountants to be regulated and
audited. Sporting clubs would not have a difficulty in being included in this in terms of
reporting. There must be regulation of all bodies in respect of handling money. That is a
spurious argument although I know where the Minister of State is coming from.
We are talking about the advancement of community. The Minister of State and Senator
Hannigan referred to the Federation of Irish Sports. That body appeared before an Oireachtas
committee this year. It is a vibrant group with great ideas, representing sporting organisations
of different types. I do not know why it would be so exercised about something if its members
were not passionate and did not have legitimate concerns. They would not waste time and
energy meeting the Minister of State and appearing before the committee if they did not have
legitimate concerns. They do, and I do, as a sports person. We are talking about the benefit of
community. We are not talking about regulation. We all accept the principle of regulation and
we all welcome the Bill, however we are precluding sporting organisations, which is wrong.
Senator Ro´ na´n Mullen: I hear the Minister of State’s arguments and there are reasonable
arguments on both sides. What mischief would result from accepting amendment No. 6 and
removing the exclusion of bodies “established and existing for the sole purpose of promoting
an athletic or amateur game or sport” from the remit of the legislation?
Deputy John Curran: As I said, if that was removed there would be an obligation on every
sporting body to register and be subject to all the regulatory control that goes with that. In
reply to Senator Buttimer on the Special Olympics, any organisation that has a charitable status
would retain that. Many sporting clubs that might have charitable status, for whatever reason,
can also have it for the activities in which they are engaged, for example if they are dealing
with disadvantage or if they establish a trust to do something. Different organisations develop
in different ways. I re-emphasis that the primary focus of the legislation was to maintain the
status quo, to regulate what has evolved through common law and which is effective, knowing
it is an evolving situation with a mandatory review.
731
Charities Bill 2007: 4 December 2008. Committee Stage
Senator Ro´ na´n Mullen: Perhaps the Minister of State will assist me, and I hope I do not
misunderstand things too badly. Removing the exclusion would leave the Bill silent on this
issue. How can such silence require all sporting bodies to register? Surely those sporting bodies
that wish to avail of certain status would be required to register in that situation. I do not ask
the Minister of State to specifically include sporting bodies, as per the other amendment, but
to remove their exclusion. It would make the Bill silent on the question of sporting bodies. Is
the Minister of State really saying that if the Bill is silent on this, it would automatically create
an obligation on all sporting bodies? I do not mean my use of language to be pejorative. I do
not believe that is what he means.
Senator Dominic Hannigan: Following from Senator Mullen’s point, what if we return on
Report Stage with an amendment stating an included body can include a sports body if it fills
in the necessary forms and provides the necessary accounts? Would the Minister of State be
happy with that or does the issue go beyond the concept and principle of having a sports body
as a charity?
Senator Jerry Buttimer: Revenue practices exclude sport but common and statutory law does
not. We do not want to divide the House on this. If we could get a guarantee, we would be
happy not to press the amendment. I cannot comprehend the reticence and reluctance regarding
sport. It is a fundamental flaw in the Bill. We are penalising sporting organisations. That is
the fundamental point.
Senator Paddy Burke: I listened with great interest to the debate over the past hour, particularly
on those amendments. One would wonder why the Minister of State excludes sporting
bodies. There must be a reason. Is it a financial reason because of the amount of money that
may flow into sporting bodies if they availed of tax relief? The Minister of State could qualify
it. It would be a shame to divide the House on this. It is a very important issue and everybody
is at one on those amendments. The Minister of State could qualify the sporting organisations
to at least local level. He could name some of the sporting organisations. It might be unfair to
name them and perhaps that is the kernel of the problem he faces. There must be some problem,
whether with the Department of Finance or another Department. I do not know. However
the bases of the points made by the Senators are very good.
The Minister of State could quality this to say the local or lowest level of sporting organisations
could avail of charitable status. Some local sporting organisations will come under severe
financial difficulties in the next few years and will find it very difficult to survive. Something
could be done in this Bill. The Minister of State said the financial area and the finance that
could accrue to those sporting organisations from the tax relief is not the perspective from
which we should look at it, but that is the perspective from which everybody is looking at it.
Deputy John Curran: That is the point. I have spoken to many of the groups and they
genuinely believe there would be a change in their tax status and that revenues would accrue
to them that they would not otherwise get. That is not the case. As I emphasised at the beginning,
we are trying to maintain the status quo. I have a great sympathy and passion for sport,
but the Bill reflects the status quo. I am conscious that we have a mandatory review because I
suspect circumstances will change substantially over five years.
Senator Ro´ na´n Mullen: Perhaps the Minister of State would address my specific point. If the
Bill is silent and does not specifically exclude sports organisations, surely that would put us in
a situation closer to the status quo.
Senator Labhra´s O´ Murchu´ : As there is a vote in the Da´ il, I propose that the sitting be
suspended.
732
Charities Bill 2007: 4 December 2008. Committee Stage
An Cathaoirleach: As the bell has just started we might just——
Senator Jerry Buttimer: This is our third interruption. Senator Norris will speak on this Bill.
This started the last day and I do not know who is responsible.
Deputy John Curran: I do not know either.
Senator Jerry Buttimer: In fairness to the Members of this House and to the Minister of
State, this is important legislation and should not be interrupted for a vote in the other House.
An Cathaoirleach: The Minister of State is not paired.
Senator Labhra´s O´ Murchu´ : We had to suspend for a vote on Second Stage, but the Minister
of State must go to the Da´ il.
An Cathaoirleach: We will suspend until 1.50 p.m. Is that agreed?
Senator David Norris: No, it is not agreed. I indicated this earlier. I do not agree to this.
Question proposed: “That the sitting be suspended until 1.50 p.m.”
Senator Frances Fitzgerald: On a point of order, there is no problem about a pair when the
Minister is doing——
An Cathaoirleach: I will not take a point of order. The question has been put. The time
allowed for voting is one minute and the time starts now.
The Seanad divided: Ta´ , 23; Nı´l,16.
Ta´
Boyle, Dan.
Brady, Martin.
Carty, John.
Cassidy, Donie.
Corrigan, Maria.
Daly, Mark.
de Bu´ rca, De´ irdre.
Ellis, John.
Feeney, Geraldine.
Glynn, Camillus.
Keaveney, Cecilia.
Leyden, Terry.
Nı´l
Bacik, Ivana.
Bradford, Paul.
Burke, Paddy.
Buttimer, Jerry.
Coffey, Paudie.
Coghlan, Paul.
Cummins, Maurice.
Fitzgerald, Frances.
Tellers: Ta´ , Senators Diarmuid Wilson and De´ irdre de Bu´ rca; Nı´l, Senator David Norris and
Ivana Bacik.
Question declared carried.
733
MacSharry, Marc.
Mullen, Ro´ na´ n.
O´
Domhnaill, Brian.
O´
Murchu´ , Labhra´ s.
O’Donovan, Denis.
O’Malley, Fiona.
O’Sullivan, Ned.
Phelan, Kieran.
Ross, Shane.
Walsh, Jim.
Wilson, Diarmuid.
Hannigan, Dominic.
Healy Eames, Fidelma.
McFadden, Nicky.
Norris, David.
O’Reilly, Joe.
Phelan, John Paul.
Regan, Eugene.
Ryan, Brendan.
Charities Bill 2007: 4 December 2008. Committee Stage
An Cathaoirleach: One Senator voted at the wrong location and that has been noted. The
numbers are unchanged and the record will be corrected.
Senator Frances Fitzgerald: On a point of order, if Ministers follow the correct procedures
in requesting a pair, there is absolutely no problem with them having a pair for Seanad business.
An Cathaoirleach: That is not a point of order.
Senator Joe O’Toole: On a point of order, the suspension should continue until such time as
the Minister of State has a pair.
Senator David Norris: Hear, hear.
Senator Frances Fitzgerald: If he requests a pair, there will be no problem. If the proper
procedures are followed, there is no problem having a pair, but he must request it.
Senator Jerry Buttimer: On a point of order, this was the third suspension of the debate on
this Bill, which is important legislation.
An Cathaoirleach: That is not a point of order.
Senator Jerry Buttimer: Has the Minister of State requested a pair?
An Cathaoirleach: That is a matter for the party Whips. We resume the debate on section 2,
amendment No. 6.
Deputy John Curran: Unfortunately, we are maintaining the status quo. In an effort to be
helpful, I highlighted that provision is made in the legislation for a mandatory review within
five years.
2 o’clock
Senator Jerry Buttimer: I do not want to divide the House on this amendment but the issue
is the benefit that would accrue to sporting organisations. By including them in the legislation,
it will enable them to attract money from whatever source, some of which will be given to
other charitable organisations. Such funding attracts tax relief for the charitable
organisations I mentioned. There will be no loss to the Exchequer if sports are
included in the Bill. I understand what the Minister of State said about Revenue,
the Taxes Consolidation Act and the Department of Finance, but the amendment will make
no appreciable difference to the Exchequer or the Revenue and it would enhance the participatory
work done by sporting organisations on the ground. In particular, the Federation of
Irish Sports has met every Member and its representatives would not urge us to include sports
if they felt it would not benefit them. I understand where the Minister of State is coming from
but I appeal to him not to divide the House on this.
Senator Ro´ na´n Mullen: I am not happy that I received a satisfactory answer to my question.
If the exclusion of sporting bodies was removed through the amendment and the Bill was silent
on the issue, what mischief would that cause? The Minister of State said he is protecting the
status quo but sporting bodies have applied for and enjoy charitable status. Will new organisations,
clubs and associations coming on stream be unable to avail of a recognition that is
currently available to certain bodies if the exclusion in the legislation is retained? Is the Minister
of State retaining the status quo in the sense that he proposes to exclude certain bodies from
accessing a benefit that is potentially available to organisations in existence?
Senator Paddy Burke: Senator Mullen has put his finger on the nub of this issue because the
Minister of State has given the impression that a sporting organisation that is not granted
734
Charities Bill 2007: 4 December 2008. Committee Stage
charitable status will not be at a monetary disadvantage. Surely the excluded organisations will
be at a disadvantage because those included will have a greater opportunity to obtain funding
from people who can avail of a tax break. Is that not the reality? According to what the
Minister of State said, excluded bodies will not be at a great disadvantage.
Deputy John Curran: There is a misapprehension that by automatically being included as a
charity, one’s tax situation will change. It will not. There is a clear distinction in the legislation.
Anyone who currently enjoys tax status with Revenue automatically transfers but the majority
of sports clubs do not. Those which may do, and which would have a status with Revenue,
would have it for a specific activity. In other words, a sporting club would not be precluded
from establishing a charitable trust to do one of the things the charities can do. However, it
would be precluded for its sporting activity. The emphasis is to maintain the status quo as has
evolved through common law.
Question put: “That the words proposed to be deleted stand.”
The Committee divided: Ta´ , 18; Nı´l, 19.
Ta´
Brady, Martin.
Carty, John.
Cassidy, Donie.
Corrigan, Maria.
Daly, Mark.
Ellis, John.
Feeney, Geraldine.
Glynn, Camillus.
Keaveney, Cecilia.
Nı´l
Bacik, Ivana.
Bradford, Paul.
Burke, Paddy.
Buttimer, Jerry.
Coffey, Paudie.
Coghlan, Paul.
Cummins, Maurice.
Fitzgerald, Frances.
Hannigan, Dominic.
Healy Eames, Fidelma.
Tellers: Ta´ , Senators Camillus Glynn and Diarmuid Wilson; Nı´l, Senators Jerry Buttimer and
Dominic Hannigan.
Question declared lost.
Amendment declared carried.
Senator Frances Fitzgerald: This is an historic victory for the Opposition.
An Cathaoirleach: Amendment No. 7.
Senator Jerry Buttimer: It is a victory for sport.
Senator Frances Fitzgerald: I hope the Government accepts this result.
735
Leyden, Terry.
MacSharry, Marc.
O´
Domhnaill, Brian.
O´
Murchu´ , Labhra´ s.
O’Donovan, Denis.
O’Malley, Fiona.
O’Sullivan, Ned.
Phelan, Kieran.
Wilson, Diarmuid.
McFadden, Nicky.
Mullen, Ro´ na´ n.
Norris, David.
O’Reilly, Joe.
O’Toole, Joe.
Phelan, John Paul.
Regan, Eugene.
Ross, Shane.
Ryan, Brendan.
Charities Bill 2007: 4 December 2008. Committee Stage
An Cathaoirleach: Amendment No. 7 on section 2.
Senator Frances Fitzgerald: I hope the Government will accept this result and not try to
change it given the historic nature of this victory.
An Cathaoirleach: The result has been announced.
Senator Diarmuid Wilson: Could I call a walk-through vote?
Senator Frances Fitzgerald: Surely Senator Wilson is not trying to overturn it.
(Interruptions).
Senator Jerry Buttimer: I do not think a walk-though vote can be called at this stage.
An Cathaoirleach: Please, just hold it.
Senator Jerry Buttimer: I do not think one can do so under Standing Orders.
Senator David Norris: Will it be the same Members voting?
Senator Jerry Buttimer: The Greens are here at last.
(Interruptions).
Senator David Norris: This is disgraceful.
A Senator: The Greens have come to the rescue.
An Cathaoirleach: Section 2, Amendment No. 7 in the name of Senators Hannigan, White,
McCarthy, Ryan, Prendergast and Kelly.
Senator Frances Fitzgerald: Will the Cathaoirleach clarify what is the ruling on the request
for a walk-through vote? We understand it cannot be taken.
An Cathaoirleach: The result was announced, amendment No. 7.
Senator Donie Cassidy: On a point of information——
Senator Jerry Buttimer: On amendment No. 7.
An Cathaoirleach: I am waiting for the Minister of State.
Senator Donie Cassidy: On a point of information, in the Da´ il when a walk-through vote is
called for, it is acceded to.
Senator Jerry Buttimer: This is the Seanad.
Senator Donie Cassidy: On what grounds is the request by the Government Whip to have a
walk-through vote being rejected?
Senator Frances Fitzgerald: On a Committee Stage vote——
Senator Donie Cassidy: We are all learning.
Senator David Norris: Well the Leader asked so I will tell him.
736
Charities Bill 2007: 4 December 2008. Committee Stage
An Cathaoirleach: I am not happy it complies with Standing Order 61(2). I announced the
result of the vote and called for the next amendment. As far as I am concerned, the system
worked effectively. That is my view.
Senator Jerry Buttimer: Hear, hear.
Senator Donie Cassidy: I accept the Cathaoirleach’s ruling. However, by what procedure
should the Government Whip have requested a walk-through vote? He requested it as soon as
it was possible.
An Cathaoirleach: As soon as I made the announcement, I called for the next amendment.
It may be the case that I did not see Senator Wilson indicating but, as far as I am concerned,
nobody called for a walk-through vote.
Senator John Ellis: On a point of order, the Government Whip intimated to the Cathaoirleach
prior to the vote being called. He did rise to make the Chair aware of his intention to
call for a walk-through vote.
(Interruptions).
Senator Jerry Buttimer: The Chair is impartial. Government Members should respect the
Chair.
Senator Frances Fitzgerald: The Chair has made a ruling in this matter. It must be respected.
An Cathaoirleach: I accept what Senator Wilson has said, but I did not see him indicating.
Members must accept that I have made my ruling.
Senator Jerry Buttimer: The impartiality of the Chair should not be questioned.
Senator Frances Fitzgerald: The ruling of the Chair in this matter must be respected.
An Cathaoirleach: Senator Ellis should be allowed to speak without interruption.
Senator John Ellis: There is a problem here, namely, that because of where the Cathaoirleach
is situated, he does not have full view of the side of the House on which Senator Wilson
is seated.
(Interruptions).
Senator Frances Fitzgerald: My goodness, they are now questioning their own Cathaoirleach.
That is out of order.
Senator John Ellis: The Whip had intimated to the Cathaoirleach that he wished to call a
walk-through vote. Therefore, he is entitled to receive same.
Senator Frances Fitzgerald: The Cathaoirleach has given a ruling.
Senator John Ellis: I hate to disagree with a ruling of the Chair.
Senator Frances Fitzgerald: The Cathaoirleach cannot be questioned like this.
Senator John Ellis: However, the position is that the Whip intimated that he wished to call
a walk-through vote, which he is entitled to do.
Senator Jerry Buttimer: We have moved on to amendment No. 7.
737
Charities Bill 2007: 4 December 2008. Committee Stage
Senator Frances Fitzgerald: It is out of order to question the Cathaoirleach in this manner.
An Cathaoirleach: I made a ruling on this matter in fairness to everyone. That was the way
I saw it. I made the announcement and called the next amendment. I was waiting for the
Minister to return.
Senator Donie Cassidy: That is not true.
(Interruptions).
Senator Frances Fitzgerald: The Government has lost the vote. This is disgraceful behaviour
in the Chamber.
An Cathaoirleach: I got no indication prior to my announcement.
(Interruptions).
Senator Frances Fitzgerald: The Government cannot gerrymander the vote. It is disgraceful.
Senator Jerry Buttimer: Government Members are being unfair to the Cathaoirleach.
Senator Donie Cassidy: There is a precedent for this.
Senator Frances Fitzgerald: It is disgraceful for Members opposite to question the Cathaoirleach
in this manner. If we were to do the same, I can imagine the response from Government
Members.
Senator Diarmuid Wilson: I genuinely stood to request a walk-through vote prior to the
Cathaoirleach announcing the result of the division. I accept and understand that he did not
see me. I have no difficulty with that.
Senator John Paul Phelan: The ruling has been given.
Senator Diarmuid Wilson: However, as Government Chief Whip, I have to insist——
An Cathaoirleach: I accept Senator Wilson’s word on that. However, I have ruled and I am
sticking with that ruling.
Senator Nicky McFadden: Well done.
Senator Diarmuid Wilson: As Government Chief Whip and on behalf of my colleagues, I
request a walk-through vote. I must insist on that.
Senator Frances Fitzgerald: Surely this is unprecedented.
Senator Donie Cassidy: It is not unprecedented.
Senator Frances Fitzgerald: I am unaware of any previous case where Members persist in
questioning a clear ruling of the Chair. We won the vote. It is a good amendment and the
Government was right to accept it.
Senator Donie Cassidy: There is a precedent.
Senator Jerry Buttimer: You lost the game, lads.
738
Charities Bill 2007: 4 December 2008. Committee Stage
Senator David Norris: We have been discussing sporting matters but Members on that side
of the House are not very sporting.
An Cathaoirleach: There are many amendments to work through. I have called for debate
to begin on section 2, amendment No. 7.
Senator Donie Cassidy: A precedent exists. Newer Members may not be aware that there is
a precedent for a walk-through vote.
Senator Jerry Buttimer: The Leader is a bad loser.
Senator Frances Fitzgerald: The Leader is being disingenuous. The Government lost the vote
and the Cathaoirleach has made his ruling. We on this side of the House would not be allowed
to act in this way.
Senator Labhra´s O´ Murchu´ : Do we deal with reality or perception? I ask this because I was
sitting behind the Whip and I can testify here and now——
(Interruptions).
Senator Frances Fitzgerald: Senator O´ Murchu´ is bringing the House into disrepute.
Senator Jerry Buttimer: He is acting the bully.
Senator Labhra´s O´ Murchu´ : Let me finish my point. We are all entitled to make a point of
order. Part of the difficulty is that perception has taken over from reality, as we see from the
type of reaction we are getting from the other side of the House.
Senator Frances Fitzgerald: Now the Opposition is to blame.
Senator Labhra´s O´ Murchu´ : Both procedure and legislation are about reality, not perception.
The reality is that the Chief Whip stood up. I am prepared to testify to that. He made it clear
that he was seeking a walk-through vote.
(Interruptions).
Senator John Paul Phelan: A ruling has been given.
Senator Frances Fitzgerald: The vote was lost. This ongoing questioning of the Chair’s ruling
is unacceptable. Government Members must accept they lost the vote.
Senator Camillus Glynn: When we were signing the division sheets, Senator Wilson indicated
that he wished to call a lobby vote.
An Cathaoirleach: However, he did not indicate so to me, to be fair.
Senator Camillus Glynn: He made that effort.
Senator Geraldine Feeney: That was the point I wished to make. I heard Senator Wilson,
the Chief Whip, say to his two Opposition colleagues that there would be a walk-through vote.
Senator John Paul Phelan: It is not his job to make that declaration.
Senator Geraldine Feeney: They heard it and I heard it. It was none of my business but I
heard it. He indicated bright and early.
739
Charities Bill 2007: 4 December 2008. Committee Stage
An Cathaoirleach: I was not informed. I am sorry but I have ruled. I am sticking with that.
I have announced that we will now move on to amendment No. 7.
Senator Diarmuid Wilson: I have to insist on putting the matter to a walk-through vote——
Senator Frances Fitzgerald: Senator Wilson cannot insist in this matter. It is a ruling of
the Chair.
Senator Diarmuid Wilson: I requested a walk-through vote at the first available opportunity.
Senator John Paul Phelan: The ruling has been given.
Senator Diarmuid Wilson: It is not my intention to cause the Cathaoirleach any distress or
inconvenience. However, I did request a walk-through vote at the first available opportunity.
It is my understanding that there is precedent for this.
Senator Donie Cassidy: Absolutely.
Senator Diarmuid Wilson: At the first available opportunity, I requested from the Cathaoirleach
a walk-through vote.
An Cathaoirleach: There certainly is precedent, if I had been informed.
Senator John Ellis: On a point of order, Senator Wilson did rise to raise the question. It is not
the Cathaoirleach’s fault but because of where his chair is positioned, he cannot see anybody on
that side. I do not know what the mechanism is for resolving this.
Senator David Norris: The Cathaoirleach has no difficulty in seeing speakers on that side
when they indicate to speak on the Order of Business. That is arrant nonsense.
Senator Donie Cassidy: I move that business be suspended for 15 minutes.
An Cathaoirleach: I have called Senator Regan.
Senator Frances Fitzgerald: The Leader cannot change the rules just because the Government
lost a vote.
Senator Eugene Regan: On a point of order, it is in accordance with Standing Orders that
when a ruling is made by the Cathaoirleach, it must stand. For Members on the other side of
the House to attempt to intimidate the Chair into reversing a ruling——
Senator Dan Boyle: That is Senator Regan’s job.
An Cathaoirleach: That is not a point of order. I am not easily intimidated.
Senator Eugene Regan: I had vision of Senator Wilson and I did not see him rise. The rulings
of the Chair should be respected.
Senator Diarmuid Wilson: On a point of clarification, I cannot allow——
(Interruptions).
An Cathaoirleach: I ask Members to resume their seats. Senator Wilson is speaking and I
ask that Members show respect.
740
Charities Bill 2007: 4 December 2008. Committee Stage
Senator Diarmuid Wilson: I cannot sit in my seat and listen to Senator Regan state clearly
that I and my colleagues are trying to intimidate the Cathaoirleach.
Senator Eugene Regan: That is precisely what they are doing.
Senator John Paul Phelan: That is clear.
Senator Diarmuid Wilson: I made it clear, with respect, that I wished to cause the Cathaoirleach
no inconvenience. I merely pointed out to him that at the first available opportunity to
me, as Government Chief Whip, I requested a walk-through vote. It is my understanding that
there is a precedent for that. I now ask him to look at the situation. If there no precedent, I
would be grateful if he would clarify that for me.
Senator John Paul Phelan: The ruling is clear.
Senator Donie Cassidy: I propose a suspension of the sitting for 15 minutes.
Senator Frances Fitzgerald: I have to say, a Chathaoirligh, I find this ongoing questioning
of your ruling completely unacceptable. This is a democratic House. If we were to do this
every day——
An Cathaoirleach: Standing Order 61(3) states:
On the announcement by the Cathaoirleach of the result of a division which has been
taken by electronic means, any member may demand:-
(a) that the division be taken again by electronic means; or
(b) that the division be taken again otherwise than by electronic means[.]
I had announced the result and had called amendment No. 7. I was moving on.
Senator Diarmuid Wilson: With respect, a Chathaoirligh——
Senator Frances Fitzgerald: A Chathaoirligh, there cannot be this ongoing questioning of
your authority if this House is to have legitimacy. This is a democracy. Just because one does
not like the result of a vote, one cannot start questioning the Cathaoirleach.
Senator Cecilia Keaveney: The politeness of Senator Wilson was not noted.
Senator Dominic Hannigan: The Chair has made a firm ruling. Members should accept it if
they are democrats.
Senator Diarmuid Wilson: A Chathaoirligh, I am asking a simple question. Is there or is
there not a precedent——
An Cathaoirleach: There is provision in Standing Orders.
Senator Diarmuid Wilson: Would you please outline to me where I was wrong?
An Cathaoirleach: I want to be 100% clear in stating that I did not see Senator Wilson. If I
did see the Whip, I would have listened to what he had to say, or to what anyone said. I must
be 100% honest about that.
741
Charities Bill 2007: 4 December 2008. Committee Stage
Senator Jerry Buttimer: A Chathaoirligh, the ruling has been made. The fundamental point
is that we are on amendment No. 7. Members on the Government side should have the grace
to accept that they were beaten on the amendment.
Senator John Ellis: A Chathaoirligh——
Senator Frances Fitzgerald: This must be accepted. The Leader cannot continue to question
the Cathaoirleach’s authority in this House.
Senator John Ellis: One has the right to question anyone here.
Senator Frances Fitzgerald: We ought to move on to the next amendment. The Leader cannot
change what happened by continually repeating it.
Senator John Ellis: On a point of order, a Chathaoirligh——
Senator David Norris: I wish to put on record that Senator Wilson did not attempt to intimidate
the Chair. Other Members on the Government side of the House did. Senator Wilson
behaved with impeccable courtesy in a very difficult circumstance and should be respected
for it.
Senator Frances Fitzgerald: Absolutely.
Senator David Norris: The same is not true generally on the Government side of the House.
In fairness to Senator Wilson it should be put on record that he behaved impeccably and
professionally. There was a glitch but these things happen.
Senator John Ellis: On a point of order, a Chathaoirligh——
Senator Frances Fitzgerald: I acknowledge that, but I want the Cathaoirleach’s ruling to
be accepted.
An Cathaoirleach: Senator Ellis has been standing for some time. I call Senator Ellis.
Senator John Ellis: I refer to what you said two minutes ago, a Chathaoirligh. You accepted
that if you had seen Senator Wilson rise, although you said you did not, he would have been
entitled to call for the vote, as he intimated he intended to do. Therefore, I believe he is entitled
to get the vote.
Senator Paul Coghlan: I accept what Senator Norris said about Senator Wilson. I respect the
Chair’s ruling but, unfortunately, no matter what one would wish, the doors have been opened
so we cannot redo the vote.
An Cathaoirleach: That is not the point.
Senator Paul Coghlan: The doors were opened so we cannot redo the vote.
Senator Donie Cassidy: We can.
Senator Paul Coghlan: I do not think so. Am I correct, a Chathaoirligh?
An Cathaoirleach: No.
(Interruptions).
An Cathaoirleach: We must move on.
742
Charities Bill 2007: 4 December 2008. Committee Stage
Senator Jerry Buttimer: Will we deal with amendment No. 7? May I speak on amendment
No. 7?
Senator Dominic Hannigan: With respect, Senator, it is my amendment and I am ready
to speak.
An Cathaoirleach: I want the Members to accept my ruling. We are moving on to the next
amendment. There is provision in Standing Order 61(3) to allow a walk through vote on the
announcement of the result of the vote.
Senator Donie Cassidy: The result was announced and Senator Wilson rose to his feet. That
is what happened. I am prepared——
Senator Frances Fitzgerald: It is not a question of what you are prepared to do. The Cathaoirleach
has given his ruling.
Senator Jerry Buttimer: The amendment is on sport and the Leader is showing very bad
sporting grace now.
An Cathaoirleach: Please, Members, if disorder continues, I will suspend the House.
Senator Donie Cassidy: A Chathaoirligh, may I make a suggestion?
Senator Jerry Buttimer: Respect the Chair.
Senator Donie Cassidy: I fully respect the Chair.
Senator Jerry Buttimer: You are not doing it at the moment.
Senator Donie Cassidy: I do not need you to tell me to do it either.
An Cathaoirleach: Senator Buttimer, please allow the Senator to continue.
Senator Donie Cassidy: The Government Chief Whip was on his feet. I will explain what
actually happened. We accept that you did not see the Government Chief Whip on his feet but
we know he was on his feet. Members on this side who have impeccably served this House are
saying as much. Can we propose an adjournment for 20 minutes to view the footage and allow
you, a Chathaoirligh, to assess the situation?
Senator John Paul Phelan: The Chair has ruled. The Leader should sit down.
Senator Frances Fitzgerald: Can I suggest again that the ruling of the Cathaoirleach be
accepted?
An Cathaoirleach: I have ruled and I am not changing my ruling. I wish to be fair to
everybody.
Senator Frances Fitzgerald: The ruling of the Cathaoirleach must be accepted.
An Cathaoirleach: We will move on to amendment No. 7.
Senator Donie Cassidy: I propose the suspension of the House for 20 minutes to allow
Members on this side of the House to look at the footage.
Senator Frances Fitzgerald: You want to undermine what the Cathaoirleach has said.
Senator Camillus Glynn: I second the proposal.
743
Charities Bill 2007: 4 December 2008. Committee Stage
Senator Frances Fitzgerald: This is a democracy.
An Cathaoirleach: There is a proposal for a suspension for 20 minutes.
Senator Frances Fitzgerald: No.
Senator David Norris: Half an hour, for God’s sake. We are entitled to that.
Senator Frances Fitzgerald: Why? It is because they do not like your ruling.
Senator Jerry Buttimer: On a point of order, can I ask the Leader what is the purpose of the
suspension? We have had a vote. Why are we suspending the sitting?
Senator Donie Cassidy: I propose that we suspend the sitting.
An Cathaoirleach: The Leader has proposed a suspension for 20 minutes.
Senator Jerry Buttimer: On what grounds?
An Cathaoirleach: The question is: “That the House be suspended for 20 minutes.”
Senator Jerry Buttimer: On what grounds is the Leader suspending the House?
Senator Dominic Hannigan: On a point of order——
An Cathaoirleach: I am putting the question.
Question put: “That the House be suspended for 20 minutes.”
The Seanad divided: Ta´ , 21; Nı´l, 19.
Ta´
Boyle, Dan.
Brady, Martin.
Carty, John.
Cassidy, Donie.
Corrigan, Maria.
Daly, Mark.
de Bu´ rca, De´ irdre.
Ellis, John.
Feeney, Geraldine.
Glynn, Camillus.
Keaveney, Cecilia.
Nı´l
Bacik, Ivana.
Bradford, Paul.
Burke, Paddy.
Buttimer, Jerry.
Coffey, Paudie.
Coghlan, Paul.
Cummins, Maurice.
Fitzgerald, Frances.
Hannigan, Dominic.
Healy Eames, Fidelma.
Tellers: Ta´ , Senators De´ irdre de Bu´ rca and Diarmuid Wilson; Nı´l, Senators Jerry Buttimer and
Maurice Cummins.
744
Leyden, Terry.
MacSharry, Marc.
O´
Domhnaill, Brian.
O´
Murchu´ , Labhra´ s.
O’Donovan, Denis.
O’Malley, Fiona.
O’Sullivan, Ned.
Phelan, Kieran.
Walsh, Jim.
Wilson, Diarmuid.
McFadden, Nicky.
Mullen, Ro´ na´ n.
Norris, David.
O’Reilly, Joe.
O’Toole, Joe.
Phelan, John Paul.
Regan, Eugene.
Ross, Shane.
Ryan, Brendan.
Charities Bill 2007: 4 December 2008. Committee Stage
Question declared carried.
Sitting suspended at 2.50 p.m. and resumed at 3.00 p.m.
An Cathaoirleach: Amendments Nos. 9, 11, 14, and 16 are related to No. 7, and No. 15 is a
technical alternative to No. 14. Thus, we will discuss amendments Nos. 7, 9, 11, 14, 15 and 16
together by agreement. Is that agreed? Agreed.
Senator Jerry Buttimer: On a point of information, are we taking amendment No. 10 now?
An Cathaoirleach: No, it is coming later.
Senator Dominic Hannigan: I move amendment No. 7:
In page 10, line 4, after “activities” to insert “whether in the State or elsewhere”.
This amendment seeks to extend the definition in subparagraph (iv) which states “in support
of terrorism or terrorist activities”. We would like to add the phrase “whether in the State or
elsewhere”. The Minister of State has seen this amendment before and during discussion in
select committee the Minister of State, Deputy Pat Carey, stated:
It is already implicit in the existing wording that the offences relate to such activities
anywhere in the world. I am advised that it is not necessary to state this explicitly and
accordingly, the amendment is unnecessary.
I am seeking clarification from the Minister of State on this because I have been told that is
not the case. The Supreme Court stated during the D case, which was related to the Criminal
Assets Bureau, that unless legislation specifically mentioned the rest of the world, it applied
only to Ireland. I am willing to listen to the Minister of State’s view on this. I am not sure
whether the D case was mentioned previously — perhaps the Minister of State already covered
this point, but I ask him to clarify it.
Senator Ivana Bacik: I want to speak on this group of amendments. My amendment is No.
14, but clearly amendments Nos. 9, 11, 14, 15 and 16 all seek to do the same thing, which is to
place as one of the charitable purposes in section 3(10) the advancement or promotion of
human rights. It is an important principle that a purpose that is of benefit to the community
should include the advancement of human rights. My suggested way of doing this would be to
insert a few words into paragraph (e) of subsection (10) so that it reads “the advancement of
human rights, conflict resolution or reconciliation”. A number of charitable bodies, and indeed
the human rights committee of the Law Society, have recommended that this amendment be
made and that the advancement or promotion of human rights be included as a specified
purpose beneficial to the community. There are some very good reasons for this.
The Minister of State may say it is unnecessary or that the purposes included in the Bill are
sufficient to deal with those charities that work for the advancement of human rights, but it is
important to state that explicitly. The Minister of State may also say that section 40 already
provides for exemptions in respect of charities that were already entitled to exemptions before
the commencement of the Act and where the Revenue Commissioners have issued a number
for the exemption. However, the human rights committee of the Law Society has said that this
would not be sufficiently inclusive. The problem is that notwithstanding the fact that an existing
charity engaged in human rights activities might already be deemed registered, such an organisation
might in the future be held to be an excluded body and therefore be excluded as a
charitable organisation. The human rights committee—I am sure the Minister of State has seen
745
Charities Bill 2007: 4 December 2008. Committee Stage
[Senator Ivana Bacik.]
its recommendations — has suggested that it would be better to include a specific reference to
the advancement or promotion of human rights.
In addition, as the committee pointed out, this is a statutory purpose that is specifically
provided for in the equivalent legislation in England and Wales and indeed in Scotland, where
the description of charitable purposes includes the advancement of human rights, conflict resolution
or reconciliation. I understand there is an equivalent protection for the advancement of
human rights in Northern Ireland. Considering our obligations under the Belfast Agreement,
we should have an equivalence of protection for human rights. For all those reasons it is
important that we include a specific reference to this charitable purpose in the Bill.
If the Minister of State is not minded to at least consider the inclusion of this purpose, he
might tell us why it is being specifically excluded from the legislation. Is it that the Attorney
General, for example, has advised that it should not be included? Given that it is included in
equivalent legislation in neighbouring jurisdictions, we need a reason from the Minister of State
rather than the all-purpose line that it is unnecessary. For the reasons I have outlined, for those
given in the very considered advice of the Law Society human rights committee and for the
reasons which, I have no doubt, other colleagues will give, it is important that the Minister at
least consider inserting the words “the advancement of human rights, conflict resolution or
reconciliation” in the definition of a charitable purpose that is of benefit to the community in
section 3(10).
Senator David Norris: Senator Bacik has anticipated much of what I was going to say and
she has done so very effectively. I spoke at considerable length on this subject on Second Stage,
as the Minister may or may not recall. I am very worried by this because it seems all of a piece
with the Government’s attitude towards human rights. As someone who has been in the House
for a long time and has worked on the board of a number of the organisations that have
protested about this, it appears that it is a specific policy intention of the Government to cripple
the advancement of human rights. Every single time it comes up, there is an attempt to limit,
to obfuscate or to remove funding. Here, organisations that work for the advancement of
human rights are being defined out of an opportunity to gain charitable funds.
The Law Society is a serious professional body. If it takes the trouble to communicate to
Members of the House that this is a serious gap, the Minister of State is obliged to listen. This
is a very different matter from fiddling around with collection boxes on O’Connell Street, which
the Minister put forward as a major advance this morning. The Government will not get away
with that little bit of persiflage. The Law Society, as Senator Bacik indicated, already raised
this matter as long ago as 2002 in a report entitled Charity Law: The Case for Reform, in which
it endorsed a definition put forward by the Charities Definitional Inquiry in Australia, which
it said was an appropriate thing to include. The Minister of State has excised the human rights
provisions from this Bill.
The society makes a series of other points. The definition is not recognised. It provides scope
for the recognition of the promotion and protection of human rights as being beneficial to the
community at large. Is it not? Is the Government prepared to be quite so cavalier about the
issue of human rights that it does not regard it as beneficial? Does it regard it as beneficial? If
so, what is the difficulty with including it in this legislation?
The definition has potential to prevent the development of new charities. The Minister of
State has said that some of the old ones might squeak through but that is hardly a very enlightened
view and it certainly places any new ones in a very serious and difficult position. It could
have a detrimental effect on the charitable status of existing charities. Section 40 provides that:
746
Charities Bill 2007: 4 December 2008. Committee Stage
A charitable organisation in respect of which-
(a) there was immediately before the commencement of section 39 an entitlement to
exemption under section 207 or section 208 of the Taxes Consolidation Act [and]
(b) the Revenue Commissioners had issued a number ... for the purposes of such
exemption,
shall, subject to section 44, be deemed to be registered in the [Register of Charities] for so
long only as there continues to be an entitlement to such exemption.
A registered charitable organisation is now being defined to be an organisation that is actually
registered in the register or that by virtue of section 40, is deemed to be entered in the register.
However, “charitable organisation” is expressly defined in the Bill and is stated not to include
an excluded body. That is fairly obvious. How could it include an excluded body? Excluded
body in turn is defined to mean among other things a body that promotes a political cause
unless the promotion of the cause relates directly to the advancement of the charitable purposes
of the body. The consequences of these provisions is that notwithstanding the deemed registration
of an existing charity engaged in human rights activity, the organisation might at some
future time be held to be an excluded body and, by definition therefore, not a charitable
organisation.
The human rights committee goes on to say it is aware that the current proposed definition
uses the word “includes” rather than “means” and that this leaves open the possibility that the
promotion and protection of human rights could be held to be of benefit to the community at
a later date, which is an argument the Minister of State made. However, the promotion and
protection of human rights is included in the statutory definitions of charitable purposes in
many other jurisdictions, including England and Wales, Scotland and Australia.
It did not at that point mention that it is also included in Northern Ireland. The exact wording
in the Northern Ireland legislation is, “a purpose that falls within this subsection if it falls within
any of the following description of purposes ... the advancement of human rights, conflict
resolution or reconciliation or the promotion of religious or racial harmony or equality and
diversity”. There is the exact parallel in the Northern part of this island over which this Government
until recently claimed jurisdiction and it is apparently its ambition to reunite the island.
It is not doing a very good job of it if it is turning its face against respect for human rights in
this part of the island at a time when in the Northern part of the island, they are clearly
doing so.
This is the most serious matter in the entire Bill. It is unlikely to be greatly covered in the
media, thanks to the triumph of Senator Hannigan here today——
Senator Dominic Hannigan: And also of Senator Norris and Senator Buttimer.
An Cathaoirleach: On the section.
Senator David Norris: ——and the misery of the Government benches. I really regard this
as fundamental and should this not be included, it will be a disgrace and a very black day for
this Government. It will be seen as all of a piece with the miserable, cynical attacks on the
Combat Poverty Agency, the Equality Authority and the Human Rights Commission. The
Human Rights Commission was established in direct parallel under the Good Friday Agreement
which Senator Bacik has so correctly invoked with regard to the human rights aspects of
this legislation. The Human Rights Commission has been neutered by this Government while,
across the Border, they are enhancing it. This is a serious matter and will send out a terrible
747
Charities Bill 2007: 4 December 2008. Committee Stage
[Senator David Norris.]
signal. Many of us will do our very best to highlight the Government’s position on this issue in
the media if it does not include it. However, if human rights is included, we will be quite happy
to celebrate with the Minister of State.
Senator Jerry Buttimer: The fundamental question is why the Government is excluding the
advancement and promotion of human rights. As on Second Stage, we have not been given a
clear meaningful answer. Is it the case that the Government is afraid of some of the organisations
that are promoting human rights? Is the Government afraid that organisations will continue
legitimately to raise concerns and advocate the promotion and advancement of human
rights? It is not acceptable that the promotion or advancement of human rights should be
denied in the Bill.
Section 3(10) refers to the advancement of community welfare, community development, the
promotion of civic responsibility, the promotion of health, advancement of conflict resolution
and reconciliation. Human rights could be included with these as an addendum. The section
includes the promotion of religious or racial harmony and harmonious community relationships,
and the protection of the natural environment. During the passage of the Bill through
the Da´ il, the Minister of State introduced the promotion of environmental sustainability. He
has also included a whole list. He has included the prevention and relief of suffering of animals.
We are now faced with the situation where human rights are being explicitly excluded from
the Bill. What happens in 20 years’ time when we are no longer Members of this House and a
new organisation wants to start up as a human rights organisation? If human rights are not the
same as they are today, what happens then? There is a need for transparency and openness.
The Minister of State when speaking on the previous amendment said that there will be a
lead-in period of five years and a review clause. Why can this provision on human rights not
be inserted now at the beginning when we have a clean sheet? We should not be saying that
the promotion of human rights is not what this Bill is about. We should be advocating the
promotion of human rights and that it should be named as a charitable purpose.
It was indicated previously that the exclusion of this section of the Bill will not deter existing
charities whose focus is the promotion of human rights from being recognised as a charity.
What about the organisations which will be established in the future for that purpose? I cannot
comprehend and I have yet to hear a clear, valid and cogent explanation why the Minister of
State is rejecting this amendment. The provision is included in the English and Scottish legislation
and I question the reason it cannot be done in this country.
From the research undertaken by me and the Fine Gael research officers, when the heads
of the Bill were originally drafted, the advancement of human rights, social inclusion and social
justice were included but then they were removed. Why are we afraid of the broader definition
and why are we preventing the inclusion of human rights? Senator Norris may be right that
Government wants to neuter human rights and wants us all to lie down and accept that the
Department of Foreign Affairs or the Department of Justice, Equality and Law Reform are
the primary bodies. If that is the case, we are not having promotion and advancement of human
rights but rather restrictive practices and denial.
On the Order of Business this morning, Senator Norris raised an interesting case about
human rights. Lest we lose the run of ourselves, this is about people. It is about advocating for
the good of people. I have a fundamental and core belief that if in doubt, we should leave it in.
Senator David Norris: That does not rhyme.
748
Charities Bill 2007: 4 December 2008. Committee Stage
Senator Jerry Buttimer: I know that. I am not trying to rhyme. I would not have the Senator’s
literary genius.
An Cathaoirleach: On the section, please.
Senator Jerry Buttimer: I am speaking on the section and I will go back to it. The Senator
is a section on his own. There is consensus on this side of the House on 85% of the Bill’s
provisions. What is the Government afraid of when it comes to human rights? A five-year
review mechanism is built into the legislation. The Law Society of Ireland and other groups
have come to us with legitimate concerns, requesting the inclusion of the promotion and protection
of civil and human rights. I do not see why this cannot be the case. Fine Gael will be
supporting this Labour Party amendment and intend to press it.
Senator David Norris: One must look at the organisations that will be excluded, such as the
Irish Council for Civil Liberties, Amnesty International. These are bodies, while supportive of
the Government in some instances, have been critical of it in the past. It appears there is an
attempt to muzzle the voice of legitimate criticism.
Among the organisations this applies to, section 3(10)(j) includes organisations involved in
“the prevention or relief of suffering of animals”. I am all in favour of that but it is a curious
Government that puts the civil rights of animals above the civil rights of human beings. That
is what this legislation does. It is absurd, unless the Minister of State is saying humans are
animals and, as animals, we could say we are looking for our animal rights. Most people would
think that a step down. I am not sure if it would be a step up because there are many instances
in which the human has proved himself or herself or itself to be the most nasty and destructive
of all the animals. It is absurd that we are prepared to protect animals but not human beings.
What is the problem with human beings?
The closest to the recommendations of the Law Society of Ireland that Senator Bacik has so
effectively quoted is amendment No. 15 because the words are almost identical: “the promotion
and protection of human rights”. It is the also the closest to the same provision in the other
jurisdiction. I urge the Minister of State to take this on board because, otherwise, I believe his
reputation will suffer.
Senator Ivana Bacik: Will the Minister of State explain why he is leaving this proposal out,
given that there is such broad support for it with five different amendments all purporting to
do the same? Will he justify why he is not accepting this amendment?
Deputy John Curran: On Second Stage and in today’s contributions, much has been read
into the fact that human rights and social justice have not been included specifically as charitable
purposes in the Bill. I want to allay the concerns that the Bill is seeking to diminish
human rights organisations operating in the State.
The charitable purposes, as set out in section 3, reflect those that have emerged in common
law in this country over many years and which form the basis for decisions by the Revenue
Commissioners in determining eligibility for charitable tax exemptions. The Bill, as I stated
earlier, is neither seeking to narrow nor to expand these charitable purposes.
The actual position is that human rights and social justice are not currently considered charitable
purposes. No organisation has been granted charitable tax exemption under section 207
or 208 of the Taxes Consolidation Act 2007 on the basis that they are human rights organisations.
Some organisations that might be commonly regarded as human rights organisations
have been granted charitable tax exemptions in the context of the charitable purposes relating
to education or poverty rather than as human rights bodies. Any such organisations that are
749
Charities Bill 2007: 4 December 2008. Committee Stage
[Deputy John Curran.]
currently registered with the Revenue Commissioners would be automatically deemed to be
registered under section 40. There is no intent in the Bill to create difficulties for human rights
organisations operating on the ground.
Many of the other charitable purposes in section 3(10) are closely related to human rights
such as the prevention of human suffering — Senator Norris was quick enough to refer to the
animals — the advancement of conflict resolution and reconciliation, the integration of those
who are disadvantaged and the promotion of their full participation in society. I appreciate the
passionate contributions of Senators on this matter but the Bill simply maintains the status quo
as regards charitable purposes. It does not impact negatively on human rights or social justice
organisations. In that regard, I cannot accept the amendments.
An issue similar to that raised in amendment No. 7 arose in the Da´ il’s consideration of the
Bill. My legal advice is that such an amendment is not necessary. It is already implicit that the
clause applies to such activities in any jurisdiction. I will, however, recheck it with the Attorney
General to clarify the position.
Senator Bacik referred to organisations being deemed as charities and then losing their
status. As long as they are engaged in what are defined in the section as charitable purposes,
that will not happen. If they do, there is an appeals mechanism to the tribunal and subsequently
to the High Court. The organisations currently operating in the State will maintain their status.
The purpose of this legislation in regulating a whole sector for the first time is to maintain the
status quo.
Senator Ivana Bacik: Like so many others I have welcomed this Bill. As I pointed out on
Second Stage, it is much needed and the charitable sector does require regulation. For far too
long, there has been inadequate regulation. The Revenue had to step in and take over a role
for which it was not designed. As Senator Buttimer stated, most of the Bill’s provisions are
supported by the Opposition. This is an important section and the Minister of State’s response
is not satisfactory. There are five different amendments all seeking in one way or another to
insert the purpose of protection or advancement of human rights as a purpose beneficial to the
community in a charitable purpose. The fact that it is left out of this Bill when it is included in
the legislation in neighbouring jurisdictions requires further explanation.
The explanation given by the Minister of State, with respect, is a reference to the common
law and the tradition that this is not regarded as a charitable purpose. The current regulation
of charities is most unsatisfactory. The common law on charitable purposes is long outdated
and requires statutory change. This Bill provides for the first time a proper and adequate
statutory framework. It is not enough to refer to common law definitions of charitable purposes
as a reason we should retain the status quo. The Bill’s purpose is to ensure more adequate
regulation.
Section 40 does not cover those bodies which are already in existence advancing human
rights. The Minister of State claimed they may become deemed bodies. That will only cover
those bodies already in existence. It would not cover organisations that might be established
soon or in the future.
Regarding a body which attains the deemed status under section 40, the problem the Law
Society of Ireland identified is that a body could lose charitable status and become designated
as an excluded body if it is deemed to promote a political cause. There has been a problem in
the past for charitable organisations with the thorny definition of what constitutes a political
cause. One of the definitions of an excluded body in section 2 is a body “that promotes a
political cause, unless the promotion of that cause relates directly to the advancement of the
charitable purposes of the body”. That is a rather circular definition.
750
Charities Bill 2007: 4 December 2008. Committee Stage
If the charitable purposes or purpose that is of benefit to the community is not broad enough
to cover the advancement of human rights, many bodies which many of us would regard as
human rights bodies, might be seen as promoting political causes which do not relate to the
advancement of charitable purposes because charitable purposes do not include human rights
advancement. There have been difficulties in the past for human rights organisations where
they have been deemed by the Revenue to be involved in political activity. There have been
difficulties with the legislation governing political donations, something that is slightly under
the radar but which is of major concern to many groups campaigning on human rights issues
in Ireland in the past and at present. The Minister of State referred to legal advice in response
to Senator Hannigan’s amendment No. 7. I ask the Minister of State to tell us if he has legal
advice on the reason for excluding advancement of human rights. Is there advice from the
Attorney General or another Government adviser that it would be inappropriate or problematic
to include this definition in section 3(10)? I do not see how it can be, given the legislation
elsewhere and the reasons I and the Law Society have advanced. I ask the Minister of State to
inform us if he has this advice.
Senator David Norris: The Minister of State gives the impression that to include this would
be to include a new body, idea or concept. I ask for clarification. The section, as proposed in
the Bill, reads:
(10) In this section “purpose that is of benefit to the community” includes—
(a) the advancement of community welfare including the relief of those in need by reason
of youth, age, ill-health, or disability,
(b) the advancement of community development, including rural or urban regeneration,
(c) the promotion of civic responsibility or voluntary work,
(d) the promotion of health, including the prevention or relief of sickness, disease or
human suffering,
(e) the advancement of conflict resolution or reconciliation,
(f) the promotion of religious or racial harmony and harmonious community relations,
(g) the protection of the natural environment,
(h) the advancement of environmental sustainability,
(i) the advancement of the efficient and effective use of the property of charitable organisations,
(j) the prevention or relief of suffering of animals,
(k) the advancement of the arts, culture, heritage or sciences, and
(l) the integration of those who are disadvantaged, and the promotion of their full participation,
in society.
I did not read this out to be tedious but to indicate the textual nature of what confronts the
House. I do not believe this precise formula has occurred in legislation before. Can the Minister
of State tell me if it has and, if so, where? For example, environmental sustainability is a
comparatively new concept. I do not believe it was included before. Will the Minister of State
be kind enough to show me in previous charitable legislation, or anywhere else, where exactly
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[Senator David Norris.]
this formulation exists? If he cannot, it is obvious that the formulation has been changed,
concocted or dreamt up and there is a precise intention to exclude one for political reasons.
Another example is racial harmony. Ten years ago, this was a completely homogenous
society and we would not have been thinking about racial harmony. It is absolutely appropriate
that we should and I welcome it, but new concepts are being included in this.
The point made by Senator Bacik is a good one. I am not sure if I referred obliquely to the
political purposes but I would like to expatiate on it. Senator Buttimer referred to a case I
raised this morning. There is a direct Irish involvement in it but there is a more significant one
reported in the columns of The Irish Times today. Without being tedious, I wish to put on the
record this story about a Zimbabwean activist. This House passed a composite motion on
Zimbabwe that was ably advocated by all of us, including Members on the other side. The
article states:
Leading Zimbabwean human rights activist Jestina Mukoko was abducted from her home
at dawn yesterday by a group of armed plain-clothes men who identified themselves as police.
Her whereabouts are now unknown. Ms Mukoko, who visited Ireland in May as a guest of
Tro´ caire, is the national director of the Zimbabwe Peace Project, a local human rights organisation
that is involved in monitoring and documenting human rights violations.
She was snatched from her family in the early hours of the morning by a mob, consisting at its
core of armed Zimbabwean police officers. This is a pattern. The article continues:
Both Tro´ caire and Amnesty expressed concern for Ms Mukoko and demanded her release.
Lawyers are going from police station to police station looking for her.
“The abduction or arrest of Jestina Mukoko is part of an established pattern of harassment
and intimidation of human rights defenders by Zimbabwean authorities in an attempt to
discourage them from documenting and publicising the violations that are taking place,”
Erwin van der Borght, Amnesty International’s Africa programme director, said yesterday.
Amnesty International is in the centre of it. Will Amnesty International be in the same position
after this? Every year, I go to a remarkable breakfast function, where Frontline, which sprang
from Amnesty International, celebrates the extraordinary heroic courage of people in
extremely difficult circumstances. This includes people in the Middle East and the Congo.
There is a risk to their lives and several have gone back and disappeared. That is a political
objective and it is one that the President of this country is happy to honour with her presence.
Members of the Government, including Ministers, queue up to be photographed at this
event, yet the organisation is in serious difficulty as a result of this legislation. Does the Minister
of State purport to know more about the best interests of human rights organisations such as
ICCL, Amnesty International, Human Rights Watch and all those that have been listed, that
have lobbied us and that have flatly contradicted every statement of the Minister of State on
this matter? Does the Minister of State purport to know more on this subject than the human
rights committee of the Law Society? That absolutely beggars belief. From where is the pressure
for this exclusion coming?
Senator Alex White: The Minister of State does not propose to accept amendment No. 7 but
I understood him to say that he would consider it further and have regard to some of the recent
judgments of the Supreme Court, particularly the D case to which Senator Hannigan referred.
It is important that the Minister of State considers this between now and Report Stage. Perhaps
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he has indicated that he will do so. It may be that he is wrong that it is not necessary to specify
in the Bill that there is an extra-territorial application.
Regarding amendment No. 9, I thought that when the Minister of State came back on Committee
Stage he would give us a reason, but he did not do so. I do not suggest the Minister of
State is behaving childishly but sometimes one asks a child why he or she did something and
the child replies “Because”, and one asks “But why did you do it?” and the child replies
“Because”. That is what the Minister of State is doing. His answer to “Why are you not doing
it?” is “I am not doing it.” It is ludicrous and absolutely no explanation has been given. It is
not as if, as Senator Bacik stated, the explanation is unsatisfactory; there is no explanation.
The explanation is that he will not do it. I respectfully say that the Minister of State must do
better than simply say “I am not doing it because I am not doing it.”
The Minister of State refers to the common law tradition and to the fact that this area of
law extends to the 17th century. I made that point on Second Stage. We are legislating here.
The whole point is that we have an opportunity to legislate and make the law. If we were to
leave it as it is, in terms of what the common law says, we would not have to legislate. That is
a self-defeating argument. We could just not bother codifying the law in legislation and rely on
authorities in the common law. That is not what the Minister of State is doing. He is legislating
and we welcome the fact that these matters are put into legislation. This is a perfect opportunity
to put down, in black and white, what the law should be. To say that we are deriving this from
the common law is close to a nonsensical argument.
The Minister of State relied on the argument that he wanted to assure us that no attempt
was being made to diminish the role of human rights or human rights organisations. We must
examine the Act and remind ourselves of the specific provisions of section 3, which deals with
the definition of a charitable purpose, which it lists under paragraphs (a) to (d). In subsection
(10) it lists the items deemed to be a “purpose that is of benefit to the community”, but this
does not include the advancement or protection of human rights. That is a deliberate exclusion
of it. It was raised on Second Stage and on Committee Stage by amendment.
The Minister of State has the opportunity to include this amendment but says he will not for
reasons that are unclear. That is worse than its absence. He is declining to include it. To
someone reading the legislation, that can only mean that the view of the Government, and the
Oireachtas if it passes this, is that the advancement and protection of human rights, which has
been proposed in various formulations in the different amendments, is not a purpose of benefit
to the community. That is the effect of the Oireachtas failing to accept the amendments proposed
by Fine Gael, the Labour Party and the Independent Senators. Whether the Minister of
State likes it or not and while he thinks he does not want to diminish the role of human rights,
it will state clearly and for all time that the Oireachtas does not believe the promotion of
human rights is a purpose of benefit to the community. If I am wrong on that, I would like to
be told how I am wrong.
The Minister of State makes a curious argument, and some of my colleagues on the Government
side also raised this on Second Stage. There is a vague suggestion that human rights can
find its way into one of the other subsections, that it is not stated clearly or manifestly but one
just has to look for it. This was not suggested by the Minister of State but by a colleague on
the Government side. This suggestion that there is another way of solving this problem than
putting it into legislation is slightly less than honest. What is that other way in which the issue
is addressed in the Act? It is not addressed in the Act but excluded, deliberately, knowingly
and, it would appear, advisedly. It is not just forgotten or dropped, but a positive decision has
been made to exclude it.
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[Senator Alex White.]
The Minister of State does not need me to remind him and the House that when we talk
about human rights as a purpose of benefit to the community, it has very considerable relevance
and importance internationally as well as domestically. It is not just a legal issue that there is
a body of law on human rights, although that is very important. It is an area of human activity
and pursuit which is relatively modern, certainly since the Second World War. The various
international bodies seeking to promote human rights and the UN and European Conventions
have emerged in the past 50 to 60 years. One would not expect to find human rights in whatever
dusty tomes from the 17th century the Minister of State and his advisers looked at. It was not
there then. It is a modern achievement — and I emphasise “achievement” — of human activity
and ingenuity, not just in law but in practice by people domestically and internationally.
Nowhere is it better expressed in the Irish context than in the experience that has grown from
the Good Friday Agreement. The promotion of human rights was put at the very heart of that
incredible and historic achievement. Still we say it is not a purpose of benefit to the community.
It does not add up.
Senator Jerry Buttimer: Senator Alex White touched on my first point that human rights are
at the core of the Good Friday Agreement. Accepting the Minister of State’s bona fides, why
does the Minister of State have four organisations, Amnesty International, the Irish Council
for Civil Liberties, ICCL, Front Line and Free Legal Advice Centres, FLAC, here at the front
line promoting this? Why are we all on this side wrong while the Government side says only
that it must do this? There is no legitimate reason.
The Minister of State must consider what Senators Bacik and Norris said about England,
Wales, Scotland and Northern Ireland. In England and Wales the lines read, “A purpose falls
within this subsection if it falls within ... the advancement of human rights, conflict resolution
or reconciliation or the promotion of religious or racial harmony or equality and diversity”. In
Scotland the description of a charitable purpose includes, “the advancement of human rights,
conflict resolution or reconciliation”. In Northern Ireland the description includes, “the
advancement of human rights, conflict resolution or reconciliation or the promotion of religious
or racial harmony or equality and diversity”. I return to my earlier point on section 3(10)(e),
“the advancement of conflict resolution or reconciliation”. I cannot comprehend why we cannot
include human rights.
Ireland has former President Mary Robinson as a beacon of human rights across the world.
The Minister of State’s party colleague and former Minister, the late Niall Andrews, did so
much good work, as did people on this side of the House. What are we saying? What are we
hiding from? This year we celebrate the 60th anniversary of the declaration of human rights
and in our country, with one stroke of a pen, we say we will not include it in this legislation. If
we are serious about this, I ask the Minister of State to accept the spirit of the amendments
and include human rights on the next Stage of the legislation rather than dividing the House,
which we do not want to do.
The omission of the promotion and protection of human rights will have major consequences
for the organisations whose sole operational focus and function is to promote human rights,
not just here but abroad. Are we saying the advancement of human rights is not of benefit to
the community? In a new, modern Ireland, surely the advancement and promotion of human
rights of all our citizens has never been more needed. The other night we saw the “Prime Time
Investigates” report on the treatment of our new communities. Senator Norris raised issues in
the House today about women and men. That is why I am surprised we are not including the
reference to human rights because there is no real reason not to do so. The Minister of State
gave no reason. On the previous occasion he was in the House, he did not convince any of us,
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Charities Bill 2007: 4 December 2008. Committee Stage
nor has he today. Given that England, Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland all include such
a reference in their legislation, why can we not do so? What are we afraid of engaging in and
bringing upon ourselves?
Deputy John Curran: In case anything new has emerged and in case there is anything further
to the latest legal advice I have, I said I would refer amendment No. 7 to the Attorney General
again. The advice I have is that the amendment is not necessary, but to be specific about it, I
will check it. In section 3, the term “charitable purposes” mirrors the changes that have
developed over many years and is used by the Revenue in considering eligibility for tax exemption.
Inserting “charitable purposes” in the Bill emerged specifically from lengthy consultations
with Revenue as to the charitable purposes they use and, to the best of my knowledge, it has
not been stated previously in primary legislation.
I agree with many of the sentiments expressed but the purpose of the Bill was to reflect the
current position, and we have done that in a number of ways. We have reflected the criteria
used by Revenue. We have adopted a position whereby those organisations currently registered
with Revenue would be deemed to be charities. We have provided for an appeals mechanism
because of the concerns expressed by Senator Bacik. We know things will evolve and that this
was a complex area on which to try to introduce regulation. That is the reason we have provided
for a mandatory review.
Some of the issues raised are an attempt to try to extend the definition of “charitable purposes”.
The Bill clearly identifies those. As I said, the advancement or promotion of human
rights is not currently regarded as a charitable purpose per se. Given the activities which organisations
engage in, they have charitable status with Revenue. Organisations that have secured a
registration number with Revenue will be deemed to be a charitable organisation. The deeming
provision in section 39 ensures that organisations currently holding tax exemptions have no
need for concern under the Bill.
I acknowledge that the terms “human rights” and “social justice” are not included specifically
for the purpose of defining “charitable purpose”. The activities which organisations engage in
relating to the promotion of human rights, such as the prevention of poverty, the advancement
of education, the prevention of human suffering, integration of those who are disadvantaged
etc. will continue.
I will conclude by making a point about Amnesty International. The Revenue Commissioners
operate a separate exemption for human rights bodies but only for those that have consultative
status with the United Nations. To the best of my knowledge, the only organisation that falls
within that category is Amnesty International, which will not be adversely affected in any way
by the Bill.
Acting Chairman (Senator Kieran Phelan): The issue has got a fair hearing. We want to try
to move on.
Senator David Norris: I accept that but if the Acting Chairman checks the Official Report
he will see that every time I spoke I introduced some new material.
The Minister of State is plainly embarrassed by this. It is obvious from his uneasiness in
giving his last few answers. It is obvious to me the Minister did not make this decision. It was
made elsewhere or by other people. The Minister is attempting, by reading out a formula from
a script, to give some justification for this but there is no justification. I wonder where this
instruction came from because it is shameful that this should happen. The Minister has indicated
that this formulation is all new and therefore there is no reason he cannot give us an
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Charities Bill 2007: 4 December 2008. Committee Stage
[Senator David Norris.]
explanation. Was it the Department of Finance or the Revenue Commissioners that gave the
instruction?
Senator Alex White: The Department of Justice, Equality and Law Reform.
Senator David Norris: Was it the Department of Justice, Equality and Law Reform——
Senator Ivana Bacik: Or the Attorney General, as I asked.
Senator David Norris: Yes, any of those people. This House should be given the reasons for
it and the advices given to the Minister of State, who is plainly troubled by it.
On other far less significant amendments the Minister is prepared to give a commitment to
the House that he will consider them again and take further advice. It is significant that he
made no such offer to the House on this amendment. His position was absolute from the
beginning and it is not reflective of his general humane concern for issues of human rights,
which are known to Members on both sides of the House. I can tell the Minister of State that
there are a number of people on the Government benches who are fairly embarrassed by this.
Will the Minister of State address those points?
Senator Ivana Bacik: I ask the Minister of State again for a specific response to my question.
Does he have advice from the Attorney General on this issue and if the Attorney General has
advised against including advancement of human rights in the Bill, what is the reason for that?
We deserve to know that rather than having the formulaic answer that this is how it has
always been.
Senator Jerry Buttimer: Can the Minister of State give us a copy of the advice from the
Attorney General as to the reason he is now allowing it? We have not been given a cast iron
reason that this should not be included, and it is important we get that.
Senator Alex White: On more than one occasion the Minister said that the practice of the
Revenue was not to include human rights——
Senator David Norris: Exactly.
Senator Alex White: ——which I accept is true historically, but the Revenue is not the
Oireachtas. The Revenue Commissioners do not make the laws, we make the laws. The fact
that the Revenue has done this is a matter of interest but it cannot be decisive.
Senator Brian O´ Domhnaill: This is an important part of the Bill and the Minister has
explained clearly where we sit in that regard.
Senator Ivana Bacik: It does not quite sit, that is the point.
Senator Brian O´ Domhnaill: We have all been contacted by various organisations that
expressed opinions about the issue of human rights, including Amnesty International, but the
Minister has clarified that issue.
Senator David Norris: It is not clarified because——
Acting Chairman: Senator Norris, Senator O´ Domhnaill is speaking. Everybody else got a
fair chance.
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Charities Bill 2007: 4 December 2008. Committee Stage
Senator Brian O´ Domhnaill: The Minister has explained that the work Amnesty International
is involved in is covered under this legislation. For the first time the legislation sets out a clear
definition of “charitable status”. For example, the relief of poverty or economic hardship——
Senator David Norris: With specific——
Acting Chairman: Senator O´ Domhnaill. One speaker at a time.
Senator Brian O´ Domhnaill: ——the advancement of education, the advancement of religion
and any other purpose beneficial to the community. That includes issues like community welfare,
protection for young people, the old, the ill and the disabled, community development in
urban and rural areas, and civic work that comes under our civic responsibilities. The legislation
has a wide bearing in terms of the work of many voluntary and charitable organisations——
Senator David Norris: That makes the presence of——
Senator Brian O´ Domhnaill: ——and their work will come under the remit of this legislation.
They have nothing to fear in that regard.
Senator Alex White: The Senator is missing the point completely.
Acting Chairman: Allow Senator O´ Domhnaill to speak. He did not interrupt anybody.
Senator Brian O´ Domhnaill: The Minister has outlined his position in terms of the legislation
and I have no difficulty with it.
Deputy John Curran: We are coming at this from slightly different points. Senator White
said we are here with a clean sheet of paper and we can go anywhere we want, but the premise
behind the legislation was to reflect what is happening currently, and primarily in that regard
the Revenue Commissioners were the key people. Most of the discussion on what were deemed
to be charitable purposes occurred around what Revenue was doing because we wanted the
legislation to specifically maintain the status quo and we have always acknowledged that this
was the first step. I do not disagree with what the Senators want to achieve but that was not
the thinking behind introducing this measure. The first measure we tried to introduce was
legislation to reflect as closely as possible the current position.
The charitable purposes referred to in the Bill came about specifically through lengthy discussions
with Revenue. The Bill is to reflect what is happening and not exclude those groups
that currently have charitable status. That is dealt with by the word “deeming”. I take the point
about a group that may lose its status subsequently, but there is an appeals mechanism in place,
to the tribunal and the High Court. The Bill was drafted in such a way as to accommodate all
the organisations that are——
Senator Ivana Bacik: Did the Attorney General advise and, if so, what was the advice?
An Cathaoirleach: The Minister is speaking. The Senator will have an opportunity to come
back in.
Senator Ivana Bacik: I asked a question about that.
Deputy John Curran: To answer that specific question, my advice on the charitable purposes
did not come from the Attorney General.
Senator Ivana Bacik: In that case, could the Attorney General’s advice be sought on this
aspect? Will the Minister indicate whether he will consider that? We may not press these
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Charities Bill 2007: 4 December 2008. Committee Stage
[Senator Ivana Bacik.]
amendments if he indicates that he will consider referring back to the Attorney General, given
that the Attorney General has not had an opportunity to give advice on this matter. It is a
matter on which he should give advice.
Deputy John Curran: Without going into the specific point, all aspects of the Bill have been
with the Attorney General. It is not as though he is not aware of this, but to go back to the
designation of charitable purposes, it came about because the purpose of the Bill was to try to
put a structure to what was happening with a view to maintaining the status quo and reviewing
within a mandatory period.
4 o’clock
Senator David Norris: The Minister of State has fundamentally misunderstood the purpose
and function of Seanad E´ ireann under the Constitution. We are here to amend and improve
legislation, not maintain the status quo, which is an absurd position. I am profoundly
shocked to discover that the instructions came from the Revenue Commissioners.
We have at last flushed it out. They are not a legislative body and
they have exceeded their capacity in this. It is appalling that the Revenue Commissioners, for
their own mean-minded reasons, can make such a decision and override the wishes of the
Oireachtas. I assure the Minister of State many members of his party would have the same idea.
Will he reserve his position on this? Senator Bacik referred to the Attorney General but I
am not sure whether it is possible for us, as Oireachtas Members or as citizens, to obtain access
to the advice given to the Minister of State under the Freedom of Information Act 1997
because, unfortunately the Government, in another of its wide-ranging human rights activities,
has limited that as well. However, we might try it. Will the Minister of State, given the considerable
passion about this issue, which he has acknowledged, give us a similar commitment to
those he gave on less significant, although important, issues that he will consider it?
After all, there was a little hiccup earlier, as a result of which the progress of this legislation
will not be as rapid as some might have anticipated, and the Minister of State will not hold
anything up by asking a few questions. We do not want to be obstructive and we will not put
the amendment to a vote if he can give an indication that the matter may be considered. It is
a bad day for the country if we can only have legislation as permitted by the Revenue Commissioners
who are determined to maintain the status quo. Seanad E´ ireann, despite its occasional
defects, is not a rubber stamp for the status quo. We are here to make improvements on behalf
of the citizen to the extent of our capacity.
Senator Alex White: The Minister of State has still not given a reason this activity is not
included. If the legislation was passed by both Houses of the Oireachtas and signed by the
President, and Senators Buttimer, Norris, Bacik or myself tabled a similar amendment in six
months, would he support that and, if not, why not? Nothing he said suggests he would not do
so. He has not given us a reason of substance for not acceding to the amendments.
Senator Jerry Buttimer: If the Minister of State gives us a guarantee he will come back on
this matter, we will reserve our position. He has not given us a clear, cogent reason. I am not
a genius, but I am baffled.
Senator David Norris: The Senator is a genius.
Senator Jerry Buttimer: I am absolutely baffled. The fundamental question is, of what is the
Minister of State afraid. From what is he running? Is it, as Senator Norris rightly deduced, that
Revenue is cracking the whip. Does the Minister of State fear organisations will be too vocal?
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Charities Bill 2007: 4 December 2008. Committee Stage
A number of bodies were abolished or amalgamated in the budget. The amendments seek the
advancement and promotion of human rights, which will benefit the people and the community.
If the Minister of State gives us a guarantee, we will reserve our position because we do not
want to divide the House. Legislation is about regulation and our role is to improve it. While
the Minister of State has a view, we will not be rubber stamps, as Senator Norris said. We
have received copious correspondence and e-mails and we have met representatives of the
organisations concerned. A vote would be a bad decision. I appeal to the Minister of State to
give us space and time, which we will also allow him. We will not press the amendments, but
this works both ways. It would be an erroneous move to divide the House.
Senator Ivana Bacik: The Minister of State said, first, he will not accede to our request
because the Revenue does not want it and, second, he wants to preserve the status quo. I do
not accept those are valid reasons for rejecting the amendments, which are important and
which would greatly enhance this welcome legislation. We cannot accept what the Minister of
State said and I will press amendment No. 14 if the other amendments are not pressed before
then. He has not given us a satisfactory response. He received advice from the Revenue but
not from the Attorney General, which has advised that the status quo should be maintained.
That is the only reason he will not accept the amendments and that is not a good enough reply.
It does not give us a reason.
Senator David Norris: Not only is it not good enough, it is an insult to the House. If the
Minister of State wished to sustain the position that the advice comes from the Revenue Commissioners,
presumably they produced an argument. Is it a budgetary issue? Do they think
money will be saved? Will the Minister of State be kind enough to outline how much money
he will save by excluding human rights? It would be interesting to know the value the Government
puts on human rights. Oscar Wilde once said that a cynic is someone who knows the
price of everything and the value of nothing. Perhaps the Revenue Commissioners are putting
a price on human rights because they are unaware of their value. I do not wish to demonise
them because they do a great deal of extremely good and important work and the State would
have great difficulty functioning without them. It is easy to target an organisation such as this
and pillory it but I do not wish to do so.
The Revenue Commissioners may well be acting in the light of their remit as an organ of
State but it is up to politicians to stand up to them, to make their own decisions and not to be
guided by them. We are living in the 21st century, not the 17th century. The Minister of State
has acknowledged that some of the formulations are not new. Why will they not accept this
one which has a cultural ancestry but may not have been formulated previously? The Minister
of State has absolutely no case whatever and I appeal to him to take further advice on this, as
he said he would on earlier issues.
Deputy John Curran: It was a policy decision that the legislation would reflect what was
happening and try to regulate it. As the Revenue Commissioners were the only body dealing
with the registration of charities, they were consulted regarding the charitable purposes and
that is reflected in the Bill. A policy decision was made that the legislation would reflect and
maintain the status quo. Knowing it was a complex area in which to introduce regulation, the
next phase will be a mandatory review within a specified period. Senator Buttimer asked
whether I would review the amendments. I have examined this issue extensively and I would
mislead the House to say otherwise.
Senator Alex White: I have doubts about this basis for legislation. If we accept the Minister
of State’s proposition that an existing practice is being secured and codified but we want to
make a reasonable proposal to add to it, as legislators, we are entitled to know why the Govern-
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[Senator Alex White.]
ment will not accept it. If there is an explanation why it cannot be or is not proper for it to be
included, all these matters can be judged and the House can decide its view. However, it is
simply not acceptable to be told this is the way Revenue has always done it and that is the way
we are always going to do it. We want to add this new proposal and a subparagraph. When we
ask why the Minister of State refuses to accept it, he just says “No”.
Even if the Minister of State is not in a position to give an undertaking that he will accede
to the amendments, if he could give a real undertaking that before or during Report Stage he
would give us the rationale for not accepting this proposal, I would be prepared to let the
matter rest until then when we can have the matter addressed.
Senator Jerry Buttimer: Like Senator Alex White, I would be happy to let our amendment
rest until Report Stage if the Minister of State would come back to Members with an explanation
of the rationale for this. It is an important issue. It is not about politics; it is about the
advancement and promotion of human rights. We will be happy to let it go to Report Stage if
we get the rationale for and movement on it.
Senator Ivana Bacik: As I have said, I would like to press my amendment No. 14 in particular
to a vote but I know all these amendments are similar.
An Cathaoirleach: We will come to that amendment later.
Senator Ivana Bacik: If the Minister of State would give Members some guarantees or a
rationale for this, I, like other Senators, would not press it at this stage but would reserve my
position until Report Stage.
Deputy John Curran: I have outlined that it was a policy decision to reflect the practices.
Revenue was consulted as to what the practices were. It is a policy decision to introduce this
legislation to regulate charities. I know it is not what people want and they are looking to go
somewhere else. That was not the policy decision. The decision was that we would reflect on
what was happening.
Senator Ivana Bacik: Why?
Deputy John Curran: The charitable purposes, while they do not specifically mention human
rights and social justice, mention the activities in which those organisations would and should
engage. It would be unfair to say I will be coming back with something different.
Senator Alex White: Perhaps with an explanation, not necessarily something different.
An Cathaoirleach: We are talking around and around on this and do not seem to be moving
anywhere.
Senator Jerry Buttimer: That is because the Minister of State has not been prepared to move.
An Cathaoirleach: I will be pressing the section.
Senator David Norris: When the Minister of State refers to policy, is he talking about a
Cabinet decision? If there is to be a delay, there need not be a very detailed discussion. Could
this not go back to the members of Cabinet to ask them, because they are making complete
asses of themselves? Otherwise, the Seanad is just being treated with contempt. It is hardly
worth coming in if, on the most serious issue on the Bill, something like this can happen. Can
760
Charities Bill 2007: 4 December 2008. Committee Stage
this not go to Cabinet or is the Cabinet just sticking behind this? I would appreciate it if the
Cabinet could be asked.
I understand the Minister of State is taking advice but this is the Oireachtas. This is the
Chamber where these kind of amendments are supposed to be made. If the Cabinet had considered
this, it is very unlikely it would take this kind of attitude. The Minister of State’s party
has a very good track record in some areas in this regard, including that of the former Minister,
Mr. David Andrews. Will the Minister of State take it back to the Cabinet? They may just tell
him to buzz off, as it were, and we will then have to put it to a vote on Report Stage. If he
could just mention it at Cabinet and explain we have had a terrible problem in the Seanad and
people are really exercised about it — I am sure members of his own side would say the same
— he could get a reading of this. I would be very surprised if this was intentional. If it is, it is
very cynical.
Deputy John Curran: I have reiterated the point that this was done to maintain the status
quo. Unfortunately, I do not see this section being changed.
An Cathaoirleach: Is the amendment being pressed?
Senator Alex White: No. The Minister of State has given a certain commitment on that.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
Senator Dominic Hannigan: I move amendment No. 8:
In page 10, after line 40, to insert the following subsection:
“(2) This Act applies to humanism or any other philosophical life-stance as it applies
to religion.”.
This amendment seeks to include within the Bill humanism and any other philosophical life
stance as it applies to religion. The US Supreme Court has recognised that humanism is a
religion for the purposes of the religious and charitable exemption and the amendment is in
line with that non-discriminatory approach. I ask the Minister of State to accept it.
Senator David Norris: I approve wholeheartedly of the idea behind Senator Hannigan’s
amendment but I am a little concerned about it. If he had stopped at humanism, I would be
all right, but it goes off into what seem rather less defined areas, such as “philosophical lifestance”,
which could be anything. It would cover some groups I do not especially want to be
covered. I would not want Scientology and my nice, neighbouring Moonies in North Great
George’s Street to be out with their collection boxes.
Senator Dominic Hannigan: What about the Falun Gong?
Senator David Norris: They should be covered by something else.
An Cathaoirleach: On the amendment, please.
Senator David Norris: The amendment is rather broad and will cover some fairly unsavoury
things. Humanism certainly should be included because it is an ethical stance, although it is
devoid of any specifically religious content. As an ethical stance, it should be protected or
recognised.
Senator Ivana Bacik: I support the amendment as it applies to humanism. Like Senator
Norris, I believe Senator Hannigan is correct that it is important humanism would be included.
761
Charities Bill 2007: 4 December 2008. Committee Stage
[Senator Ivana Bacik.]
In section 3, the advancement of religion is one of the charitable purposes and the Humanist
Association of Ireland certainly should also be included as a charity under that heading. The
Labour Party has amendment No. 13 which would exclude particular cults or organisations that
were oppressive and so on. The two amendments would have to be read together because I take
Senator Norris’s point on the broad nature of “any other philosophical life-stance”. However,
humanism is of increasing importance. I have been to numerous humanist ceremonies such as
weddings and, sadly, funerals. It is important we include humanism within that definition.
Senator Dominic Hannigan: In light of the comments made by Senators Norris and Bacik, I
am happy to withdraw the amendment at this stage and will revisit it on Report Stage.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
Section 2, as amended, agreed to.
SECTION 3.
Senator Dominic Hannigan: I move amendment No. 9:
In page 11, subsection (1), between lines 30 and 31, to insert the following:
“(b) the promotion and protection of human rights;”.
Amendment put.
The Committee divided: Ta´ , 18; Nı´l, 22.
Ta´
Bacik, Ivana.
Burke, Paddy.
Buttimer, Jerry.
Coffey, Paudie.
Coghlan, Paul.
Cummins, Maurice.
Fitzgerald, Frances.
Hannigan, Dominic.
Healy Eames, Fidelma.
Nı´l
Boyle, Dan.
Brady, Martin.
Carty, John.
Cassidy, Donie.
Corrigan, Maria.
Daly, Mark.
de Bu´ rca, De´ irdre.
Ellis, John.
Feeney, Geraldine.
Glynn, Camillus.
Keaveney, Cecilia.
Tellers: Ta´ , Senators Dominic Hannigan and Alex White; Nı´l, Senators Camillus Glynn and
Diarmuid Wilson.
Amendment declared lost.
762
McFadden, Nicky.
Norris, David.
O’Reilly, Joe.
O’Toole, Joe.
Phelan, John Paul.
Regan, Eugene.
Ross, Shane.
Ryan, Brendan.
White, Alex.
Leyden, Terry.
MacSharry, Marc.
O´
Domhnaill, Brian.
O´
Murchu´ , Labhra´ s.
O’Donovan, Denis.
O’Malley, Fiona.
O’Sullivan, Ned.
Ormonde, Ann.
Phelan, Kieran.
Walsh, Jim.
Wilson, Diarmuid.
Charities Bill 2007: 4 December 2008. Committee Stage
An Leas-Chathaoirleach: Amendment No. 10 was discussed with amendment No. 6. Is
amendment No. 10 being pressed?
Senator Jerry Buttimer: May I reserve the right to move it again on Report Stage?
An Leas-Chathaoirleach: Any amendment can be entered on Report Stage.
Senator Jerry Buttimer: Will the Leas-Chathaoirleach clarify whether an amendment that is
defeated can be resubmitted on Report Stage?
An Leas-Chathaoirleach: If an amendment is pressed and lost on Committee Stage, it cannot
be moved on Report Stage.
Senator Jerry Buttimer: I will resubmit it on Report Stage.
Senator Dominic Hannigan: As co-sponsor of this amendment, I will go along with that.
Amendment No. 10 not moved.
An Leas-Chathaoirleach: Amendment No. 11 was discussed with amendment No. 7. Is the
amendment being pressed?
Senator Joe O’Toole: Not at this time.
Amendment No. 11 not moved.
Government amendment No. 12:
In page 11, subsection (2), lines 34 and 35, to delete “for the purposes of this Act”.
Amendment agreed to.
Senator Dominic Hannigan: I move amendment No. 13:
In page 12, subsection (6), line 9, after “concerned” to insert the following:
“, provided that for the purposes of this section, “religion“ shall not include any organisation
or cult which in the opinion of the Authority is primarily economic in nature or employs
oppressive psychological manipulation of its adherents”.
The purpose of this amendment is to ensure that the protection afforded under the legislation
does not extend to cults which brainwash their members. Cults are a dangerous phenomenon
and our objective in this amendment is to ensure they do not gain from the introduction of
this Bill.
Senator Jerry Buttimer: I support Senator Hannigan’s amendment.
Senator Ivana Bacik: I too support amendment No. 13. As I said, I would like the definition
of “religion” to be extended to include humanism, but it is correct to exclude what we know
as cults from this definition.
Senator David Norris: When I made my comments about cults during the debate on amendment
No. 8, I had not registered that this careful limitation was proposed. I assume that some
similar formula will be put before the House on Report Stage, which I will be pleased to
support. A certain amount of rewording may be required but it is a useful proposal. I will
support the reworded series of amendments when it comes before the House.
763
Charities Bill 2007: 4 December 2008. Committee Stage
Deputy John Curran: This amendment reflects an amendment that was submitted by Deputy
Wall for consideration on Committee Stage in the Da´ il. Deputy Higgins also raised concerns
on this matter in the Da´ il. An undertaking was given by my predecessor, the Minister of State,
Deputy Pat Carey, on Committee Stage in the Da´ il, to reflect on the issue raised in Deputy
Wall’s amendment. Having since consulted with my legal advisers, it is accepted that there is
considerable merit in the principle of the proposal that nominally religious organisations which
are motivated by profit, abuse their members or use inappropriate psychological techniques in
retaining or recruiting new members should not be granted the privilege of charitable status.
While I cannot accept the wording of amendment No. 13, I offer a firm commitment to
propose an amendment on Report Stage, the wording of which is being developed in consultation
with the Attorney General, which will achieve the same goal. I thank Deputies Wall
and Higgins and Senators Hannigan, Alex White, McCarthy, Prendergast and Kelly for their
constructive and helpful input in formulating this amendment.
Senator Dominic Hannigan: I thank the Minister of State for his gracious response. We look
forward to his proposal on Report Stage.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
An Leas-Chathaoirleach: Amendment No. 14 was discussed with amendment No. 7. Is
amendment No. 14 being pressed?
Senator Ivana Bacik: In view of the vote on amendment No. 9, which is based on the same
principle, and the comments of the Minister of State, I do not propose to press amendment
No. 14 at this point, although I reserve the right to do so on Report Stage.
Amendment No. 14 not moved.
An Leas-Chathaoirleach: Amendment No. 15 was discussed with amendment No. 7. Is the
amendment being pressed?
Senator David Norris: No.
Amendment No. 15 not moved.
An Leas-Chathaoirleach: Amendment No. 16 was discussed with amendment No. 7. Is the
amendment being pressed?
Senator Jerry Buttimer: I will reserve the right to move this amendment on Report Stage.
Amendment No. 16 not moved.
Section 3, as amended, agreed to.
Sections 4 to 6, inclusive, agreed to.
SECTION 7.
An Leas-Chathaoirleach: Amendments Nos. 17 and 27 are related and may be discussed
together. Is that agreed? Agreed.
Government amendment No. 17:
In page 13, between lines 31 and 32, to insert the following subsection:
764
Charities Bill 2007: 4 December 2008. Committee Stage
“(2) The Revenue Commissioners shall not be bound by a determination of the Authority
as to whether a purpose is of public benefit or not in the performance by them of any function
under or in connection with—
(a) section 207, 208 or 609 of the Taxes Consolidation Act 1997,
(b) section 17 or 76 of the Capital Acquisitions Tax Consolidation Act 2003,
or
(c) section 82 of the Stamp Duties Consolidation Act 1999.”.
Deputy John Curran: This is a technical amendment to be inserted on legal advice. It is
important that the decisions of the new charities regulatory authority be separated from those
of the Revenue in regard to tax matters. It is not appropriate for the new authority to have
any role in such matters, which are the domain of the Minister for Finance and Revenue alone.
Every charitable organisation, as well as having to have exclusively charitable purposes, must
also have a public benefit. The effect of the amendment to section 7 is to remove any doubt
that Revenue will be in any way bound by any determination of the authority as to whether
the purpose of the organisation is of public benefit.
The amendment to section 40 is also of a technical nature. Under the existing wording, it
might be interpreted that Revenue is required to provide all the information it holds for each
organisation deemed to be registered under section 40. Amendment No. 27 clarifies that
Revenue will only have to provide information that would normally be required of charities
registering under section 39 of the Bill.
Amendment agreed to.
Section 7, as amended, agreed to.
SECTION 8.
Government amendment No. 18:
In page 13, paragraph (b), lines 37 to 39, to delete all words from and including “or” in
line 37 down to and including “months.” in line 39 and substitute the following:
“(c) dividends paid in respect of such shares, being dividends that are not retained as part
of the property of the trust for more than 12 months, or
(d) any other distribution of cash or assets made in respect of such shares, being cash or
assets that are not retained as part of the property of the trust for more than 12 months.”.
Deputy John Curran: On Report Stage in the Da´ il I introduced an amendment that had been
developed to off-set a possible risk that the Bill, as previously worded, might act as a significant
impediment to conventional securitisation activities. Following further interdepartmental consultation
and discussions with legal advisers since Report Stage, it is considered that a further
technical drafting amendment is required to copperfasten the provision.
Amendment agreed to.
Section 8, as amended, agreed to.
Section 9 agreed to.
765
Charities Bill 2007: 4 December 2008. Committee Stage
SECTION 10.
An Leas-Chathaoirleach: Amendments Nos. 19, 20, 31, 35 and 38 are related and may be
taken together. Is that agreed? Agreed.
Senator David Norris: I move amendment No. 19:
In page 14, lines 22 to 29, to delete subsection (2) and substitute the following:
“(2) Any default in the relationship/agreement between the Charity and the State
Agency/Public body whereby the Charity would be at a loss, would not be counted as such
where the Charity has little or no option but to comply with standards/practices set out by
the particular body. In such a case, the individual trustees/Directors of the Charity cannot be
held liable.”.
I referred to my objective in this amendment on Second Stage. If I recall correctly, the Minister
attempted to answer my concern by reference to insurance clauses and so on in the Bill. I have
since had further communication from the briefing groups, which continue to have concerns in
this area which are not met by the existence of the insurance clause. They are of the view that
this clause does not eliminate the risk for trustees and directors for several reasons. First, the
term “acting in good faith” limits the scope of the policy. If, for example, a charity continues
to enter into agreements with the HSE knowing the HSE will probably default, which happened
in the case of the day centre in Tolka Valley operated by Respond, the insurer can simply
refuse to pay, claiming the director or trustee did not act in good faith. While one might ask
why a charity would continually enter such agreements to deliver much needed services in the
community, charities are forced to enter into agreements with State bodies in such instances.
In other words, they are compelled to take action that might invalidate their insurance. In
addition, it is doubtful whether insurance companies would supply the level of insurance
required in the first place. The insurance companies might experience hesitation in circumstances
where there was a prior indication of a possibility of defaulting.
Second, what would be the cost of such insurance? Considering that Respond, for example,
has developments valued at \45 million, which is a very substantial sum, it would simply not
be in a position to insure against withdrawal of State funding for such developments, which
could happen, especially in the current parlous circumstances. Third, the insurance would not
remove the debt. Charities would still be liable. This could involve substantial sums, perhaps
up to several million euro.
Fourth, the insurance would not remove the potential of a criminal record for the director.
This is a very serious matter. Even if it might just be a technical conviction, it would still be a
criminal record. That would prevent the person going to the United States, for example. The
impact this could have on voluntary directors could be disastrous. Two directors of the Respond
charity are also directors of their family businesses. If criminal proceedings were taken against
them, they would be forced to withdraw as directors from their family businesses. Finally, the
reputation of a voluntary director would be tainted forever if he or she was found not to have
acted in good faith by entering into agreements with State bodies where there existed a high
risk of default by the State body.
For these very practical reasons this amendment should be viewed charitably by the Minister.
Senator Joe O’Toole: I wish to echo the words of Senator Norris. There is an issue of overlegislating
here. The phrasing of our amendment is not the most elegant but we are raising a
serious issue of substance. The Minister will recall a long debate over the past two years about
the decrease in volunteerism at all levels in Ireland, be it political activism or activism in the
766
Charities Bill 2007: 4 December 2008. Committee Stage
churches, in voluntary bodies, sports bodies and so forth. In an increasing number of cases, the
only way people can protect themselves is by forming companies. Once they form companies
they act as directors and immediately come under the radar of the Director of Corporate
Enforcement. The Director of Corporate Enforcement is extremely diligent. Everything is simply
business. I have the highest respect for the man. He does not have any discretion in terms
of how he does his work. The Companies Act is very clear, and uses phrases such as “trading
recklessly”.
As outlined by Senator Norris, the issue arises when a charity runs into difficulty. I am a
director of a charity which recently sought a grant from a Department. The grant was given on
the basis of our presentation, which included an absolute commitment of money from another
source. It was not a State source, unlike the example given by Senator Norris. The charity had
a clear commitment from a company that it would support administration. On that basis the
charity approached the Department and assured it that none of the grant would be lost in
administration and that all of it would go to the precise objectives of the charity. That was very
attractive to the Minister dealing with the matter.
Unfortunately, one of the companies that had committed its support went bust. This had a
knock-on effect. The amount of money coming from the State was dependent on the initial
amount coming from the private sector. In the meantime, in the context of a business plan and
good governance decisions had been taken and projects put in place, with commitments given
and people employed. Everybody acted in good faith, although some might argue otherwise.
It could be argued that a prudent person might have waited until the money was in the bank
before taking the next steps. That would be bad management but perhaps good governance.
Immediately, there is a conflict.
I believe matters will be sorted out eventually in the example I have given, although all sorts
of movement will be required. That is not to say it will certainly be resolved. However, if
somebody has been employed in good faith or if a project for a building has been signed for
in good faith, the knock-on effect is that these do not proceed. As a result people are out of
work or commitments and contracts are not adhered to, all for the best reasons. Ultimately, a
person in that situation is probably very likely to find themselves convicted of negligence, at
least, or reckless trading, at most. Either way, they will have a criminal record.
A criminal record has huge implications, aside from the two mentioned by Senator Norris.
It can affect one’s credit rating and so forth, which is crucial, particularly at present. One is a
disbarred director. The Director of Corporate Enforcement has no choice but to disbar the
person for five years. One can appeal that to the courts but at that stage one is up to one’s
neck in the law.
There is a serious issue involved here. The Bill will be going back to the other House anyway
and I urge the Minister to examine this amendment. I heard a reference to the Minister’s
remarks in the other House but I do not know if that is the case. However, I know that getting
insurance cover for criminal negligence is fraught with risk. In some cases one cannot do it. In
fact, if one is found to have acted recklessly, which is a criminal offence, there are aspects of
insurance that are declared void at that point. It is a complex matter.
I have no wish to drag out the debate on this. Senator Norris has made the case, as have I.
There is a real and honest issue before us. I do not like the wording of the amendment. I did
not get enough time to draft it. It contains too many sub-clauses and the sentence is too long.
I am anxious to hear the Minister’s views on this in terms of what can be done.
Senator Jerry Buttimer: As Senators Norris and O’Toole said, there is an issue in this area.
We have met with the Respond organisation. I am not sure if it is a matter of legislation or
767
Charities Bill 2007: 4 December 2008. Committee Stage
[Senator Jerry Buttimer.]
incorporation but there is a need to examine the matter. There is serious concern among people
about this legislation. I am worried that there will be a reduction in the number of people
opting to become directors of charitable organisations or volunteering. Senator O’Toole mentioned
limited companies. I am a member and director of Bishopstown Community Association,
which is a limited company.
There are organisations who have been given commitments by State bodies — the HSE in
the instance mentioned by Senator Norris — whose funding mechanism has ceased in the
current economic climate. That results in a deficit. The issue requires examination. The Minister
can argue that the different points are dealt with in other sections of the Bill but let us deal
with it now.
Senator Dominic Hannigan: I wish to speak on amendment No. 31 which seeks to insert a
new subsection. The amendment states, “Where the liability of any charitable trustees of a
charitable organisation falls to be considered in respect of any non-compliance with a requirement
imposed by a statutory authority, due regard shall be had to whether the resources of the
charity as appearing on its books of account under this section were such as to enable the
charity to comply with that requirement.” As Senator Buttimer mentioned, we have all been
contacted by various housing associations, including Respond which suggested liability should
be limited where the charity has no funds to comply with the requirements imposed. No one
is seeking absolute immunity, but we seek to achieve a balance with which both sides can live.
Deputy John Curran: I recognise there is an issue, with which I am familiar, and I have seen
and received correspondence on the matter as it concerns Respond. The amendments reflect a
concern that a charity trustee might be held personally responsible for losses that a charity
might suffer where State agencies or a public body do not follow through on an agreement
made with a charity. The Charities Bill does not make charity trustees personally liable for
such losses. Charity trustees are already personally liable for such losses, which is unfair.
Some weeks ago when the Bill was on Report Stage in the Da´ il, we introduced section 89
which allows charities to take out insurance to indemnify trustees from personal liability in
respect of any act done or omitted by him or her in good faith. This approach reflected the
recommendation of the Law Reform Commission and I believe it addresses the matter. I am
conscious that the matter involves the role of directors which is governed by different legislation.
It is impossible to legislate for every specific case. The amendment introducing section
89, which reflects the recommendation from the Law Reform Commission, substantially
addresses this issue.
Senator David Norris: This is precisely the problem highlighted in the submission I made
when I spoke first on this amendment. Those working in Respond, as a result of the discussion
in the Da´ il, were aware of the introduction of the clause. Virtually everything I said indicated
their unhappiness with it. The Minister of State has not responded to their continuing unhappiness.
He has responded very fairly to the initial situation and I accept everything he says in
that regard. However, in my contribution I pointed out that the charities involved believe there
are further difficulties which have not been addressed by section 89. Will the Minister of State
consider the matter further?
Senator Joe O’Toole: Section 89 provides for indemnification for either an individual, several
individuals or the whole board of directors. It deals with acts and omissions and covers matters
relating to negligence, good faith and performance. I will be guided by the Minister of State in
this matter because I do not know enough of the background. It seems certain people within
a given charity could find themselves in difficulty. Is the Minister of State saying that even if
768
Charities Bill 2007: 4 December 2008. Committee Stage
he were to accept our amendment, company law dealing with liability might move matters in
another direction? I accept there is a strong likelihood of that occurring. I will consider the
matter further and may revert on Report Stage. I will not press my amendment at this stage
as I wish to examine the indemnification matter further, including the normal costs involved. I
will discuss the matter on Report Stage and, in the meantime, compile information, take further
advice and discuss the matter with people in the insurance industry.
Senator Jerry Buttimer: There is an issue with indemnification. There is a genuine concern
pertaining to this among those in the charities sector. This arises later on in the Bill and the
matter raises certain fears. Rather than prolong the debate, I encourage the Minister of State
to revert to the Seanad. Some people have entered into contractual service agreements where
a deficit exists and where there is a failure by the agency in question to deliver financial
outcomes. We must not spoil a good Bill and we must protect those who volunteer and opt in.
There was a task force to consider this matter. If we were to accept the Government line on
volunteerism, it could cause difficulties. We want to encourage people to participate rather
than prohibit them. Will the Minister of State reconsider the matter?
Senator David Norris: I understand section 89 permits a charity to make arrangements for
payments from its resources for insurance and so on, which is a welcome advance. However, it
does not really address several of the points I made and especially the feasibility of obtaining
such insurance. I am not an expert on insurance and my colleague, Senator O’Toole, would be
more closely acquainted with the matter. He played a distinguished role on the Personal Injuries
Assessment Board and knows a good deal about these matters, whereas I am not so familiar
with matters of insurance availability or cost. However, the premium would be related to the
possible exposure of the insuring body. If significant sums were involved, as there might well
be, the premium could be very high. Will the Minister of State reconsider the matter? Like
Senator O’Toole, I table an amendment on Report Stage, although I am sure the Senator will
find a more elegant formula. Like Senator O’Toole, I wish to disclaim ownership, since, to use
the phraseology, I simply bunged it in when I got it.
5 o’clock
Senator Joe O’Toole: We should progress the matter. I recognise the point made by the
Minister of State at the beginning. He has hinted the amendment may be in conflict with
company law and especially the Companies Act 1990, which dealt with reckless trading. I will
put again a question which the Minister of State did not address in his response.
We require a more complete answer. I am concerned that if I move this amendment,
it may be in conflict with existing company law and there may be further
consequences. It would be helpful to tease out the matter further on Report State. I will do
some more research and I intend to discuss it with the Director of Corporate Enforcement and
obtain a view from him. It would be helpful to see where we stand and to establish the position
if this were to be passed. We should have an honest assessment of how it fits in with existing
company law. I do not wish to appear to be an innocent at large. One cannot say that something
which clearly is wrong is right to justify passing a law and that is not what we aim to do. We
aim to ensure people do not find themselves enmeshed involuntarily because of a given law
having acted reasonably and in good faith. Will the Minister of State take further advice and
perhaps we can revisit the issue on Report Stage?
Deputy John Curran: It is acceptable if the Senator wishes to reintroduce the amendment
on Report Stage. However, we should bear in mind some practical considerations. The issue is
not contained or restricted to the Charities Bill. Separate legislation is responsible for the roles
of directors and trustees and this legislation is mindful of that responsibility.
769
Charities Bill 2007: 4 December 2008. Committee Stage
Senator Joe O’Toole: That is correct.
Deputy John Curran: We recognised there was an issue and the amendment made in the
Da´ il was in line with the Law Reform Commission suggestion. I do not wish to give the
impression that directors or trustees of a charity would be dealt with in a substantially different
way, because other legislation already governs that area. If the Senator wishes to revert on
Report Stage, that is fine. That is the background to the issue.
An Leas-Chathaoirleach: Is amendment No. 19 being pressed?
Senator David Norris: No. In most cases, directors of charitable organisations may not receive
any remuneration and they expose themselves to risk without getting any reward and this
should also be borne in mind. I withdraw the amendment.
Deputy John Curran: To clarify the issue, the charity, rather than the individual trustee of
that charity, can pay for the indemnity of the individual.
Senator David Norris: I understand that point.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
Amendment No. 20 not moved.
Section 10 agreed to.
Sections 11 to 14, inclusive, agreed to.
SECTION 15.
Government amendment No. 21:
In page 16, between lines 7 and 8, to insert the following subsection:
“(2) The Minister may, in relation to the performance by the Authority of its functions
under section 39, give a direction in writing to the Authority requiring it to comply with such
matters specified in the direction relating to—
(a) the maintenance of the register,
(b) the collection and collation of information for the purpose of maintaining the register,
or
(c) the entry into agreements with persons, other than charitable organisations, for the
purpose of obtaining such information.”.
Deputy John Curran: It is recognised that the establishment and maintenance of the register
will give rise to costs. The purpose of this amendment is to allow greater flexibility in the future
in terms of maintaining the register of charities. Specifically, the amendment seeks to give the
authority options, once directed by the Minister, to so use material from other relevant electronic
databases, including any that have been or are being supported, in whole or in part, by
public funds, in maintaining the register.
By way of background, over the past two years my Department, with the EU and other
philanthropic sources, has provided funding towards a feasibility study to establish whether it
might be possible to set up a GuideStar Ireland. For those who may be unfamiliar with the
concept, GuideStar is founded upon the provision of an extensive, free, searchable web-based
database of all non-profit organisations in a country. It is constituted as a non-profit entity in
770
Charities Bill 2007: 4 December 2008. Committee Stage
all the countries where it has been established or is in development, including the USA, the
UK, Canada, Israel and Germany. In the countries where it is established, GuideStars are
regarded as an authoritative source of information about the entire non-profit sector, which
would include the charities sector.
This amendment seeks to ensure there would be no impediment preventing the authority,
under the direction of the Minister, from engaging with external data providers, such as a
future GuideStar Ireland, in relation to the provision of material to assist in maintaining the
register of charities. While there is no certainty that a GuideStar Ireland or similar project will
proceed or, indeed, that there would be any public funding available for such a venture, it
would be remiss for the legislation not to provide for the possibility of such an arrangement,
particularly were it to be the case that public funds had been expended on the potential source
of such the data.
The legal advice to me is that the most direct way to ensure this is to include a provision for
an appropriate direction from the Minister to the authority. I stress that such a direction would
apply only in relation to the maintenance of the register of charities. This amendment will help
to ensure efficiency, value for money and better joined-up government in the future.
Amendment agreed to.
Section 15, as amended, agreed to.
Sections 16 to 31, inclusive, agreed to.
SECTION 32.
An Leas-Chathaoirleach: Amendment No. 22 has been discussed with amendment No. 2.
Government amendment No. 22:
In page 22, subsection (2)(c), line 42, to delete “statute” and substitute “enactment”.
Amendment agreed to.
Government amendment No. 23:
In page 22, subsection (2)(c)(i), lines 43 and 44, to delete “statute” and substitute
“enactment”.
Amendment agreed to.
Section 32, as amended, agreed to.
Sections 33 and 34 agreed to.
SECTION 35.
Question proposed: “That section 35 stand part of the Bill.”
Senator Jerry Buttimer: I ask the Minister of State to clarify the purpose of this section,
which reads: “The Authority may take such steps as it considers appropriate to consult with
persons whom it considers may be affected by the performance by it of its functions.” I ask for
an explanation of what is meant in terms of consultations with stakeholders. I am particularly
concerned about the part which reads “may be affected by the performance by it of its functions”.
That phrase struck me.
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Deputy John Curran: The entire Bill was drawn up on a consultative basis with the sector.
Specifically, one of the areas of concern is that the consultative process would continue in
terms of developing codes of practice and so forth. That is why some of the codes of practice
will not be put on a statutory basis but will be a reserve function of the Minister, based on
ongoing consultation.
Question put and agreed to.
Sections 36 to 38, inclusive, agreed to.
SECTION 39.
An Leas-Chathaoirleach: Amendment No. 24 is consequential on amendment No. 25.
Government amendment No. 24:
In page 27, subsection (5), line 26, to delete “An application“ and substitute “Subject to
subsection (6), an application”.
Deputy John Curran: Throughout the development of this Bill through the Houses of the
Oireachtas, we have been consciously looking at ways to ensure that the administrative burden
imposed by legislation does not prove unmanageable, particularly for smaller charities. It is
recognised that upon application for registration, a comprehensive list of documentation must
be filed by charities. The amendment I introduced in the Da´ il to deem existing charities as
automatically registered goes a long way towards alleviating the registration burden for existing
charities. However, while I consider that larger charities in particular should provide the range
of information listed, I recognise that smaller charities or particular categories of charities
might have difficulties in fulfilling this requirement. With this in mind, I commend amendment
No. 24 to the House and the related necessary technical amendment No. 25 under which the
authority, with the consent of the Minister, can reduce the number of documents that particular
charities are required to file. This amendment will be welcomed by such charities and I commend
it to the House.
Senator Jerry Buttimer: It is important that, under this legislation, there is compliance and
proper procedures are in place. However, we must make allowances for training for charitable
organisations to enable them to comply with the legislation. I hope that, as a consequence of
this Bill, there will not be a prohibitive cost to charities in complying with the legislation
because that would defeat the purpose of the law. I know that is not the Minister of State’s
intention but we must make allowances for the need for training for charities to assist them in
complying with the regulation of the sector. I hope that the cost of such training to organisations
will not be prohibitive.
Deputy John Curran: I agree with the Senator. This is something of which we have been
very conscious and hence the acknowledgement of different categories of charities. With regard
to the authority in particular, it is important to point out that it is not just a regulatory authority
but also a supportive one to the industry.
Amendment agreed to.
An Leas-Chathaoirleach: Amendment No. 25 has been discussed with amendment No. 24.
Government amendment No. 25:
In page 29, between lines 13 and 14, to insert the following subsection:
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“(6) Where, in relation to an application for registration under this section, the Authority
is of the opinion that to require the applicant concerned to comply with certain of the
requirements of subsection (5) would be unduly onerous, the Authority may, with the
consent of the Minister, exempt that applicant from having to comply with those requirements
when making the application.”.
Amendment agreed to.
Section 39, as amended, agreed to.
SECTION 40.
An Leas-Chathaoirleach: Amendment No. 26 has been discussed with amendment No. 2.
Government amendment No. 26:
In page 31, subsection (1)(a), line 7, to delete “1997,” and substitute “1997, and”.
Amendment agreed to.
An Leas-Chathaoirleach: Amendment No. 27 has been discussed with amendment No. 17.
Government amendment No. 27:
In page 31, lines 14 to 18, to delete subsection (2) and substitute the following:
“(2) The Authority may request the Revenue Commissioners to provide it with all such
information in the possession or procurement of the Revenue Commissioners, relating to
a charitable organisation to which subsection (1) applies, as the charitable organisation
would be required to provide to the Authority were it making an application under
section 39.
(3) Notwithstanding any enactment or rule of law, the Revenue Commissioners shall
comply with a request under subsection (2).”.
Amendment agreed to.
Section 40, as amended, agreed to.
Section 41 agreed to.
NEW SECTION.
An Leas-Chathaoirleach: Amendments Nos. 28 and 29 are related and may be discussed
together.
Senator Joe O’Toole: I move amendment No. 28:
In page 32, before section 42, to insert the following new section:
“42.—It shall be an offence for a person or body to act or purport to act in furtherance of
charitable purposes as defined in this Act, whether or not the word “charity” or any derivation
of same is used in connection with such person or body, without such charitable
purposes having been registered under this Act, where the Authority is satisfied, on the
balance of probabilities, that the person or body so acting or purporting to act is not acting
in furtherance of any such charitable purposes.”.
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Senator Jerry Buttimer: I wish to speak to amendment No. 29. The Minister of State and his
officials are well aware of the issue of the scam involving pre-signed mass cards, which are
sold in shops. Companies sell mass cards to newsagents, purportedly signed by priests, often
missionaries from abroad. I compliment the Irish Missionary Union, particularly Father Moran,
on his work on this issue. The cards are sold for varying prices, the average in the shops being
\4, while the priests who signed them may not receive anything at all, or may receive just a
few cent from the proceeds. In certain known cases, the priest has been dead for a number of
years. We are talking about profiteering. People who buy mass cards do so under the assumption
that the mass is being said for the deceased person and that the missionaries or priests
involved receive some or all of the proceeds. I know from talking to people in the shops that
stock these cards that they do believe those selling the cards are a bona fide charity. Thus,
there is a problem in this area.
I appreciate it is difficult to find a way to deal with this, but the reasoning behind the
amendment is that we need to bring clarity to the area of mass cards in a way that can address
the problem with regard to the organisations selling them, who are purporting to be fulfilling
a charitable purpose but who are in reality not doing so. I ask the Minister to come back to
this on Report Stage.
It is important that we acknowledge the work of the Irish Missionary Union in highlighting
this issue. In England, Wales, Scotland and Northern Ireland there are provisions in the charities
legislation to cover commercial enterprises engaging in such activities. I look forward to
hearing what the Minister has to say on this issue. We need to take into account the fact that
such activities are occurring. We could put numerous examples on the record of the House but
I will not delay the House in this regard. I hope we can find a way to tighten up matters.
Senator Joe O’Toole: I support the amendments on behalf of Senator Mullen, who is not
here, but I have serious reservations about both amendments. I have visions of some body or
other chasing around Africa to see whether Dr. Livingstone is still alive and saying masses. I
agree with the points made by Senator Buttimer; it is not my intention to disagree in this
regard. I can see that there is a scam associated with mail and so on that we receive, but I do
not think this is the way to deal with it. I honestly believe this. There are too many things that
are vague. It should be a criminal act to mislead people in this way. However, it is covered by
the legislation as it stands. The products are not fit for purpose, so it is already an offence. If
somebody knowingly sells something that is other than what it purports to be, it is an offence
under the current law, and I do not think another item of legislation is required. That is not to
say, however, that I disagree with the points made by Senator Buttimer. I completely agree
with the points made by the Senator and by people who have written to me about this issue.
It is an issue that should be dealt with from a consumer point of view. It is very unfair that
people are misled and exploited in this regard and it should be dealt with, but I honestly do
not believe this is the best way to do it.
Senator David Norris: I have a problem with the whole business of buying and selling spiritual
matter, as it seems to me to be——
Senator Joe O’Toole: Simony.
Senator David Norris: ——close to simony. That is exactly what I was going to say. The
selling of indulgences was one of the things that started off the Reformation. I have bought
such things because, although I do not approve of it theologically, I respect the feelings of
other people, particularly when they are grieving. Sometimes people are comforted by having
a mass said, and I respect this. What one wants to do as a human being is to give some degree
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of solidarity, support and comfort. I am aware of the fact — it is pretty disgusting — that there
is an element of scam involved in some of these things, and it is insulting. The Church itself
should move to regulate this as much as possible.
In instances when I do acquire these mass cards, I go to the little church off Grafton Street,
in Johnson’s Court. Is it Whitefriar Street?
Senator Joe O’Toole: Clarendon Street.
Senator David Norris: Clarendon Street. I thank the Senator. I am never terribly comfortable
with shops in churches. This is not just a matter for one religious denomination; I go to St.
Patrick’s every Sunday and we have a shop inside——
Senator Joe O’Toole: Money changers.
Senator David Norris: Exactly. The Senator anticipated me. I said to them several times that
if I was attacked by religious fervour I would go after them with a whip and whip the money
changers out of the temple. Actually, they sell rosary beads and all the rest of it. It is really
quite a flagrant money-making exercise, but at least the money goes to the church and towards
sustaining the architectural fabric in a situation — this is not directly related to the Charities
Bill, but there is a connection — in which the State, under the Constitution, appears to be
precluded from supporting these remarkable pieces of our cultural and architectural heritage.
I go to Clarendon Street because I know it is a reputable place and because it has a rather
better standard of card. Quite apart from the fact that these cards may be signed by dead
priests in India, some of them are revolting aesthetically. They are lurid beyond belief. They
would really put one off the entire thing. Clarendon Street, I am glad to say, has a dignified
style. I get the ones that have a little black cross. They do not have all these——I will not even
describe them, but I am sure people know what I am thinking of.
Senator Jerry Buttimer: The Senator’s conscience must be at him.
Senator David Norris: My conscience is often at me. I do not think these cards have the
slightest effect. It is exactly the same, as far as I am concerned, as Lourdes and Fatima and
such places. I do not believe the Blessed Virgin Mary has appeared in these places.
Senator Jerry Buttimer: No, no.
Senator David Norris: I do not, but I respect them, because I think they are holy places.
They are sanctified by the suffering and the prayers of the people who go there. I will not go
on. I will tell Senator O’Toole privately what I think about this. Let it be a reserved sacrament.
Deputy John Curran: I am glad the Senator has decided to have some private conversations.
Section 46 of the Bill makes it an offence for charitable organisations that are not registered
to portray themselves as charities. On Report Stage in the Da´ il I strengthened the provision,
with a particular focus on the practice of door-to-door collection of second-hand clothes and
bric-a` -brac, which was a cause of genuine concern to many people. I have received numerous
complaints from the public about such collections, as have Members of both this and the other
House. I made it an offence to cause the public to reasonably believe that an organisation is a
charity, irrespective of the terminology used by the organisation in its leaflets and so on. By
that I mean that it does not explicitly have to use the word “charity”. The amendments strengthened
the provision and greatly limited the scope for non-charitable organisations to suggest to
the public that they are charitable in nature. This will in turn help the public to distinguish
between genuine charitable collections and non-charitable collections. While I introduced it
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[Deputy John Curran.]
specifically to deal with door-to-door collections, it will also deal with the issue of mass cards,
because if somebody is giving the impression they are selling mass cards for a charity and it is
not charitable, it will be dealt with accordingly.
The issue of mass cards has come up time and again and has exercised Members of both
Houses. I have been backwards and forwards in consultation with numerous legal advisers to
obtain a form that is acceptable and manageable, and we will bring that in, as I indicated
earlier, on Report Stage. For this reason, I cannot accept the amendments.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
SECTION 42.
An Leas-Chathaoirleach: Is amendment No. 29 being pressed?
Senator Jerry Buttimer: On that——
An Leas-Chathaoirleach: The amendment has already been discussed with amendment No.
28.
Senator Jerry Buttimer: I am just going to explain what I intend to do in light of what the
Minister has said.
An Leas-Chathaoirleach: We have discussed this amendment already.
Senator Jerry Buttimer: I am just going to say——
Senator Joe O’Toole: On a point of order, the Senator can let this go and immediately
afterwards speak on the section.
Senator Jerry Buttimer: I am learning every day. I will withdraw the amendment for
Report Stage.
Amendment No. 29 not moved.
Question proposed: “That section 42 stand part of the Bill.”
Senator Jerry Buttimer: I take cognisance of what the Minister said. I appreciate that it is
getting late and we have been here all day. However, this is an important issue. I do not agree
with Senator Norris, by the way, regarding the apparitions at Lourdes and Knock.
Senator Joe O’Toole: Let us not open up that again. We should stick with Ireland for the
moment.
Senator Jerry Buttimer: It is important to mention in this context that we have faith and we
are all entitled to that. I do not agree with the Senator. The Minister of State’s amendment to
strengthen the Bill is probably a good one. We need to introduce an offence for those who
purport to be collecting for charity, as is the case here. Go raibh maith agat.
Deputy John Curran: We will deal specifically with the Mass card issue on Report Stage.
Question put and agreed to.
Sections 43 to 46, inclusive, agreed to.
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SECTION 47.
Government amendment No. 30:
In page 40, lines 48 and 49, to delete subsection (11) and substitute the following:
“(11) This section does not apply—
(a) to a charitable organisation that is a company,
(b) to an education body, or
(c) in relation to a centre for education designated by the Minister under section 10(4)
of the Act of 1998.”.
Amendment agreed to.
Amendment No. 31 not moved.
Section 47, as amended, agreed to.
SECTION 48.
Government amendment No. 32:
In page 41, lines 34 and 35, to delete subsection (6) and substitute the following:
“(6) This section does not apply—
(a) to a charitable organisation that is a company,
(b) to an education body,
(c) to a charitable organisation in respect of a financial year in which its gross income
or total expenditure is less than—
(i) \10,000, or
(ii) such greater amount, not exceeding \50,000, as may be prescribed,
or
(d) in relation to a centre for education designated by the Minister under section 10(4)
of the Act of 1998.”.
Amendment agreed to.
Section 48, as amended, agreed to.
Section 49 agreed to.
SECTION 50.
Government amendment No. 33:
In page 43, lines 17 and 18, to delete subsection (13) and substitute the following:
“(13) This section does not apply—
(a) to a charitable organisation that is a company,
(b) to an education body,
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(c) to a charitable organisation in respect of a financial year in which its gross income
or total expenditure is less than—
(i) \10,000, or
(ii) such greater amount, not exceeding \50,000, as may be prescribed,
or
(d) in relation to a centre for education designated by the Minister under section 10(4)
of the Act of 1998.”.
Amendment agreed to.
Section 50, as amended, agreed to.
SECTION 51.
Question proposed: “That section 51 stand part of the Bill.”
Senator Joe O’Toole: I wish to draw attention to section 51. I must declare a conflict of
interest as I chaired the audit review group on behalf of the Government about five or six
years ago and I am also a member of the audit and accounting supervising authority of the
board of the same.
I draw the attention of the House to the demands and requirements under section 51. I
thoroughly approve of every one of them but I wish to stress in particular that it confers
upon the auditor an extreme level of independence and a requirement of independence and in
subsection (1)(d) it also gives the auditor the authority to seek explanations and statements
from past or present charity trustees in doing his or her work. I want to park it until I come to
my next amendment but I will refer back to it. The requirements of an independent auditor
are crucial and I approve of every one of them. Anyone dealing with auditing would have to
approve of every one of them. They reflect very well the role of the auditor. People often think
that because it is a charitable organisation, the demands of governance might in some way be
less stressful. If ever there was a place to stress test, it is in a charitable organisation because
they often deal with dry money and coins. It is necessary to have more demanding structures
and strictures in place in a charitable organisation. Any large charitable organisation will have
a large audit committee and probably an independent chairperson. Systems will have been put
in place to ensure the money is collected, banked, counted and dealt with in appropriate ways.
The independent auditor is someone who must be remote and independent of all those issues.
Deputy John Curran: I acknowledge the contribution of the Senator. I will respond to the
specific point at the later section.
Question put and agreed to.
Sections 52 and 53, agreed to.
SECTION 54.
Government amendment No. 34:
In page 45, subsection (1), line 15, to delete “any rule of law” and substitute “any enactment
or rule of law”.
Amendment agreed to.
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Section 54, as amended, agreed to.
Sections 55 to 63, inclusive, agreed to.
Amendment No. 35 not moved
Section 64 agreed to.
Section 65 agreed to.
SECTION 66.
Question proposed: “That section 66 stand part of the Bill.”
Senator Joe O’Toole: I have a problem with this section. There is a flaw in it which needs to
be looked at. This is an important section that deals with the report of the inspectors and who
might have access to it. The authority may, if it considers it appropriate, furnish a copy of the
report on request and on payment of such fee as may be prescribed to a number of different
people, one of whom would be a trustee of the charity, a person whose conduct is referred to
in the report or the auditors of that charitable organisation, etc.
It is incorrect to charge for the report a person whose conduct is referred to in it. It certainly
is contrary to common law and it certainly impinges on the principles of natural justice to do
so because a person is entitled to see what charges are made about him or her. It is singularly
inappropriate where, for example, I am being investigated by an inspector, as could happen,
even on issues we need not refer to now but which could include everything from immoral acts
to all manner of other things, and a report is made on me.
A real-life parallel situation occurred last week. The Moriarty tribunal was required to
provide a copy of its interim report at no cost to every single person mentioned in that report.
We are doing the very opposite in this section. We are requiring the payment of a fee. I do not
oppose the charging of a fee in certain cases. I refer to subsection (3)(b)(1) where it might be
reasonable to charge a fee in such an instance. The person mainly involved, however, has an
entitlement and should not be charged. I see no difficulty with charging the auditors I have
significant problems with charging the next three people listed because this goes against
Government policy and other legislation.
When the Committee of Public Accounts was dealing with offshore accounts and the prudential
behaviour of the banks in the earlier part of the previous decade, one of the problems that
became exposed was that people did not know what was going on. The Central Bank did not
know what the Revenue Commissioners knew. The Revenue Commissioners did not know
what someone else knew. The regulation dealing with the Office of the Director of Corporate
Enforcement deals with this in a number of places. What normally happens is there is a memo
of understanding between the two groups, for example, between the Central Bank and the
Revenue Commissioners or whatever. This is not the point I am making but there should be a
free flow of information. In another part of the Bill there is a requirement if one thinks something
is criminal to pass on the information, and that is very good. However, in this instance
there could be a piece of information to which the Revenue Commissioners, the Director of
Public Prosecutions or the Central Bank might wish to have access. As a matter of principle,
if those bodies require it, they should not be required to pay for it. I do not think it is a
sustainable position to hold. Those three who are acting for the public good and also the person
whose conduct is referred to in the report should not pay. I await the Minister of State’s view.
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Deputy John Curran: This point has been brought to my attention before. It is not a statutory
requirement that these agencies be charged. It is by way of regulation of the Minister. Rather
than describing the precise nature of who might be charged and the rate of charge, it can be
done by way of regulation. I do not envisage other State agencies being charged.
Senator Joe O’Toole: The Minister of State is correct. I should have added a question to it.
I see that subsection (3)(b) states a payment of such fee as may be prescribed by regulation. I
recognise that and there is no imperative in the regulation that there would be a fee but that
there could be a scale of fees. Will the Minister of State clarify that it would not be intended
in the regulation to charge the body or a person who is the focus of the investigation?
Deputy John Curran: The reason it is covered by regulation is that it is the first time a new
system will be in place. Rather than trying to identify the recipients who might want the information,
the regulation would allow a degree of flexibility. It would not be envisaged that there
would be charges for one Government agency getting information from another in this regard.
It was felt that putting this into primary legislation would tie the hands of those involved.
Senator Joe O’Toole: I accept that.
Question put and agreed to.
Sections 67 to 69, inclusive, agreed to.
SECTION 70.
Government amendment No. 36:
In page 55, subsection (1)(b), lines 15 and 16, to delete “Minister for Enterprise, Trade
and Employment” and substitute “Director of Corporate Enforcement”.
Amendment agreed to.
Section 70, as amended, agreed to.
Sections 71 to 73, inclusive, agreed to.
SECTION 74.
Government amendment No. 37:
In page 57, subsection (4), to delete lines 24 and 25.
An Leas-Chathaoirleach: This amendment was also tabled by Senator Joe O’Toole.
Senator Joe O’Toole: In my 20 years as a Member of the House, this is the first time I have
seen the Government’s asterisk on one of my amendments on the list, as normally my amendments
are copied into other ones. I appreciate the positive news it conveys to me.
The reason I put down this amendment related to the role of the charity trustee and, in light
of my earlier comments, the auditor. I saw a conflict in the Bill, as drafted, where it allows for
a charity trustee to also be a charity’s auditor. With the provisions in section 51, it would allow
a charity trustee, or his or her trustee colleagues, to receive a statement from himself as auditor,
an obvious conflict of interest. It also conflicts with the requirement of independence on the
part of an auditor.
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The Committee of Public Accounts is dealing with an auditing issue where there was too
close an arrangement. In a perfect scenario, a charity would have an audit committee and an
auditor. The audit committee would be chaired by an independent board member. For example,
the chair of the audit committee for the Commission of the Houses of the Oireachtas is an
outsider, not a member of the commission. He deals directly with the external auditor, in this
case the Comptroller and Auditor General, without the presence of the Clerk of the Da´ il, the
quasi-Secretary General.
The optics are important in such cases, as we have learned from the FA´ S matter in recent
weeks. It is important that the auditor is not in any way involved as a trustee, director or other
position. The independent auditor should be able to produce reports without contact with
anyone in the charitable organisation. No registered auditor would agree to the way the Bill
was drafted in that he or she could be a charity trustee and auditor at the same time.
Deputy John Curran: The issue that led to amendment No. 37 was raised by Senator O’Toole
on Second Stage. Since then I reflected on it and consulted several people. I endorse Senator
O’Toole’s sentiments that a charity trustee should not audit his or her charity. This is reflected
in section 187 of the Companies Act 1990, under which an officer or a servant of a company
must not also be its auditor. Although we both proposed the same amendment, there may be
an element of cross-purposes involved. Ultimately, however, the outcome would be the same.
The original reasoning behind including an auditor as a charity trustee in section 74 was not
to allow charity trustees to audit their own charities but rather to provide that where an offence
occurred within a charity and an independent auditor of the charity concerned was a party to
the offence, the independent auditor would be regarded as a charity trustee in terms of having
committed an offence under the legislation.
On reflection, I have considered that this has the potential to place an unreasonable burden
on independent auditors, who are already subject to high standards of regulation. I thank
Senator O’Toole for bringing forward the amendment.
Senator Joe O’Toole: I thank the Minister of State and his advisers for dealing with this
matter that I raised on Second Stage. The amendment strengthens the Bill.
Amendment agreed to.
Section 74, as amended, agreed to.
SECTION 75.
Amendment No. 38 not moved.
Question proposed: “That section 75 stand part of the Bill.”
Senator Jerry Buttimer: Given what has happened with the Broadcasting Bill, with the Minister
for Communications, Energy and Natural Resources, Deputy Eamon Ryan, and the FA´ S
debacle, would it not be wise that we take away the power from the Minister to appoint
members to the charity appeals tribunal and establish a new body to appoint them? I fully
support the need to have on the tribunal those from a legal background and with experience
in areas of expertise relating to charities. I do not mean to be disrespectful but we do not have
career civil servants who have worked in charitable organisations and it is important we bring
in people with this experience. It is important we recognise their work and use their years of
experience. Will the Minister re-examine how members of the tribunal are appointed?
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Deputy John Curran: The background criteria for appointment of members to the appeals
tribunal is laid out in the legislation. Should they be appointed by the Minister or another
body? At this stage, people are saying we have enough other bodies and it should be a direct
appointment. However, this would be done within the specific range of experiences mentioned
in legislation. The section states that two members of the tribunal “shall be persons who ...
have experience in areas of expertise relating to charities.” I acknowledge the Senator’s point,
but it will be by ministerial appointment and for those who meet the criteria.
Senator Joe O’Toole: I agree with the Minister of State’s point on ministerial appointments.
However, the point raised by Senator Buttimer must be addressed in another way. We have to
think differently in this regard. If this were in the UK, a public advertisement for an appointments
process would be taken out, as one often sees in the British broadsheets. The other way
has been dealt with in this committee before. I am not asking that this be done now although
it could be examined. The Minister for the Environment, Heritage and Local Government,
Deputy Gormley, is examining the powers and functions of Seanad E´ ireann in another context.
There is a requirement in modern democracies that the establishment of a tribunal such as that
would be washed through a committee or structure. I would go halfway between the points
made by Senator Buttimer and the Minister of State. I would leave the appointment with the
Minister because we do not need another body to do it, otherwise we would be back in the
same problem, but it could be overseen perhaps by a committee of the Houses. The Government
accepted a report two years ago suggesting that people appointed to public bodies could
come before a select committee of this House. That would keep it away from the Da´ il in the
sense that it would be less political. People could show their form and put on record what the
Minister of State is talking about.
Regarding FA´ S and the Committee of Public Accounts, one would ask the chair of that
board what stress tests he or she would set up after taking it over to ensure it was working
properly? That would mean that people must do their work beforehand and be committed to
it. I am not proposing that but I would like greater awareness of that approach to deal with
the legitimate and valid points raised by Senator Buttimer. That would also protect the Minister,
who could act clearly in moving forward in this way.
Deputy John Curran: I do not disagree with Senator O’Toole and I have an open mind
on the operational procedures that would effect the appointment. Nothing is set in stone in
that regard.
Question put and agreed to.
NEW SECTION.
Government amendment No. 39:
In page 59, before section 76, to insert the following new section:
“76.—(1) The Minister shall, with the consent of the Minister for Finance provide the
Tribunal with such and so many staff as he or she considers appropriate to perform the
functions of a secretariat to the Tribunal including staff who while assigned to perform those
functions are also assigned to perform similar functions on behalf of one or more other
bodies (other than the Authority) established by or under an Act of the Oireachtas.
(2) The Minister shall, with the consent of the Minister for Finance provide the Tribunal
with premises in which to perform its functions and, if the Minister and the Minister for
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Finance consider appropriate, such premises may be premises that are occupied by one or
more other bodies (other than the Authority) established by or under an Act of the
Oireachtas.”.
The amendment emerges from the desire to ensure the new regulatory regime operates in an
efficient way, allowing for sharing and pooling resources where possible to ensure value for
money and to avoid unnecessary duplication. In this context, it is recognised that there are
already in existence a number of appeals structures across several regulatory regimes and that
it may be possible for the new charity appeals tribunal to avail of existing resources and facilities
in carrying out its statutory role, which would reduce overheads and lead to a more streamlined
process. This amendment provides for that possibility and is consistent with the principles
of regulating better.
Amendment agreed to.
SECTION 76.
Question proposed: “That section 76, as amended, stand part of the Bill.”
Senator Jerry Buttimer: Given the decentralisation project, is it known where the location
of the headquarters will be?
Senator Brian O´ Domhnaill: Cork.
Senator Joe O’Toole: The Minister of State should just say that it will be Cork.
Deputy John Curran: I could be smart and say that it will be Clondalkin, but it is not known.
Senator Jerry Buttimer: I was hoping it would be Cork. I appeal to the Minister of State to
locate it in Cork.
Deputy John Curran: Let us get through the legislation before the operation. I do not know.
Question put and agreed to.
SECTION 77.
Senator Joe O’Toole: I move amendment No. 40:
In page 60, lines 26 to 29, to delete subsection (2) and substitute the following:
“(2) The Tribunal may, where it considers that in the particular circumstances of a case it
is appropriate to so do;
(i) conduct part or all of its proceedings in private;
(ii) make an order directing that the identities of all or one or more of the parties to an
appeal shall not be disclosed.”.
I raised this matter on Second Stage. There is an equal and opposite argument to what I will
say. This amendment deals with appeals that could touch on matters of public morality, lawfulness,
terrorist activities and activities contrary to public morality. Most of these matters are
subject to an appeal. Section 77 states: “Subject to subsection (2), proceedings before the Tribunal
shall be conducted in public.” No flexibility is allowed. There are numerous instances in
the Bill where we are required to keep matters confidential. An issue that could be part of
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[Senator Joe O’Toole.]
appeal documentation will be required to be confidential. In the course of an appeal held in
public, there will be reference to documents that are partly confidential. It will be like the
tribunal at Dublin Castle, where there are blacked out bits of the document in order to conduct
the appeal. One cannot conduct proceedings in such circumstances because one may need to
reference the blacked out parts if they are core to the point being investigated. It causes an
unnecessary conflict.
Having said that, I argue against myself for a moment. The approach in these appeals and
tribunals and the tone of freedom of information is that we should govern and work behind a
pane of glass or in total transparency. I have never agreed with that although it is a nice thing
to say. One cannot do all one’s business in a transparent way behind a pane of glass. There are
times when one cannot maintain the spirit of the legislation and be required to do it all. The
term used is “shall”, not “may”, with which I would be more comfortable.
Beyond that, I have been in a number of situations where appeals dealt with legislative
matters and the legislation was silent on whether the appeal should be public or private. In
those cases, what has been done reflects what is suggested in my amendment. One does not
lose control of the whole thing if my amendment is accepted, one can decide what parts to
hold in private. It does not deal with the outcome. Whichever way the proceedings are held,
there will be a public statement and an explanation of the finding. Everything can be done
but flexibility can be maintained in order to deal with it in a confidential way. That is the
general principle.
When I tabled this amendment, the Minister had not conceded the earlier point. I refer to
the damage that could be done to an auditor, whose life was concerned with auditing. This
could not happen in the situation where the trustee is being investigated, but I want to examine
other people who might be there. Senior people in a number of charities came under public
scrutiny and as stories started flushing through the place it is very hard to recover from them.
If this is to be held in public, the minute an investigation into Joe O’Toole for issues of public
morality hits the headlines, one does not need to read the second paragraph on reputation. It
is all over. It would not matter if one was completely exonerated, in the public image would
be the front page story that the Minister of State, Deputy John Curran, was involved in something
in his private capacity. We have a duty in this regard.
Two weeks ago, we heard a member of the Supreme Court articulate his frustration at the
way courts were reported in the newspapers — he referred to all newspapers. Judges cannot
control reports and they have extraordinary powers to stop reportage. There would be no
powers here. As well as the damage done to personality, one loses control. There is an all day
sitting, with a reporter sitting there, and he or she reports what he or she wants to, which is
what is news worthy, interesting, sexy and sells papers. The Minister of State and I have discussed
that area in other contexts. The Minister of State is put in a straitjacket. Whether he
accepts my amendment — there may be better ways of dealing with it — the word “shall”
should be replaced by “may”. I am arguing against my amendment, which I tabled to get the
discussion going. If “may” was inserted, the way the tribunal does its business would have to
be covered by regulation and approved by the Minister. It comes back to the Minister. Before
the tribunal begins an investigation it must have a process, and that process must comply with
the principles of natural justice and be acceptable in terms of fair play, equity and various other
concerns. That process is regulated by the Minister. I cannot remember under which section
that is, but I read through it. At that point the tribunal would decide that aspects of a case
should be held in private or that it would do an entire investigation privately to avoid condemning
a person on day one. That happens regularly. This week in the FA´ S case there was a person
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under investigation and a person under suspension. This was kept confidential until he chose
to make it public. The Minister’s tribunal could not do that.
I hope I have made a plausible and convincing case that this is not simple, that “shall” is
definitely too strong and that the half-way point is the word “may”. I would like to hear the
Minister’s view on it. I will accept the Minister’s stance on this and will not call a vote because
I do not feel I have all the wisdom on it. However I have a fair amount of experience on it.
Senator Jerry Buttimer: I will not dwell on Senator O’Toole’s point, but it is important to
strike a balance here. We can argue the merits and demerits of “shall” versus “may” but it is
important that we protect people. Senator O’Toole correctly said we do not want spin put on
certain events that may transpire later, but we must allow for the protection of people. None
of us condone wrong-doing or irregularities, but we must protect people. I would like the
Minister to take a middle, balanced approach to this matter.
Deputy John Curran: I have given serious thought to this issue. One of the key principles of
the Bill is to improve transparency for the benefit of the public regarding the operation of
charities. Accordingly, section 77 requires the charity appeal tribunal to hold its hearings in
public. I have given this much consideration. In particular circumstances where privacy is considered
to be an issue, the Bill provides that the tribunal may, where it considers appropriate,
order the identities of the parties to the appeal not to be disclosed. Senator O’Toole wants to
go further than that, so I have sat down and considered it. I will try to explain it simply. We
have that aspect of it and, as Senator O’Toole said, we have parked the issue of the auditors.
We are trying to keep transparency and confidence in the sector. Having moved on the issue
of the auditors, and having the section which allows the tribunal to order that the identities to
the appeal should not be disclosed, I do not intend to accept the amendment. I have given it
considerable thought and do not claim to have all the wisdom. I take Senator O’Toole’s point
and I know exactly what he is trying to achieve. However, it is a balance between achieving
one thing and not losing sight of what we set out to try to do, namely, to provide the transparency
which would give confidence to the sector.
Senator Joe O’Toole: I accept the Minister’s good offices in this matter. He raised it with
me, so I know he has given it much consideration. While I do not fully agree with the Minister,
the points he made are correct and I cannot argue with them. I acknowledge the fact that the
name of the person can be kept confidential and we have taken the auditors out of it; they are
two issues of significance. I will not push this to a vote. It is important to put it on the record
and that the officials have given it consideration.
A very important part of this legislation is that it is forced to review itself after a couple of
years and that this issue and how it worked under this heading would go straight into that
process, so we can keep an open mind on it as we go along. It should be stress tested as we go
along and if we find a weakness, it can be changed. I am happy to do that, but we should have
an awareness of the importance of this aspect.
I am not sure if the Government is taking a decision on a privacy Bill. Most Cabinet members
are in favour of one, although they may never have the gumption to take on the newspapers.
I was reared in a house where my father always maintained that the two pieces of legislation
lacking in this country were one to give transparency and one to give privacy, and that they
should balance each other. That is important. I accept the Minister’s argument and thank him
for considering it. I ask him to give me a commitment that it will go into his records in the
Department that this issue should be stress-tested over the next number of years.
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Charities Bill 2007: 4 December 2008. Committee Stage
Senator Paddy Burke: I support Senator O’Toole on this important issue. I agree with
Senator O’Toole that this issue could be examined when the review happens in five years time.
There are ways around it. There could be a clause that specifies that a person could have the
option of having his or her investigation done in private. Some matters may be very sensitive
and if a person has a very good case, he or she may not mind its being in public. There is much
merit in Senator O’Toole’s suggestion that this can be observed over the next five years.
Deputy John Curran: I do not at all disagree with what Senator O’Toole said, but the point,
in trying to bring the legislation forward, is to strike the appropriate balance. We are trying to
maintain transparency and confidence in the sector and, at the same time, we have made
specific provisions that the identities do not have to be revealed and, more importantly, on the
associated issue of the auditor being involved, which was previously addressed. On balance, I
want to leave things as they stand. The mandatory five year review exists because the area is
quite complex. Obviously, this particular issue regarding “may” and “shall” will be reviewed
as part of that, but the balance remains as it is.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
Section 77 agreed to.
Sections 78 to 87, inclusive, agreed to.
SECTION 88.
Amendment No. 41 not moved.
Question proposed: “That section 88 stand part of the Bill.”
6 o’clock
Senator David Norris: This deals with agreements with charities trustees. I am not sure if my
point is appropriate here; if not, perhaps the Minister or his advisers might advise me where it
might come in. It is the question of payments to people collecting on the streets, for example,
and payments to executives. I think that would be covered. I would like to see
some percentage limit placed as a matter of course on charities. A sum not above
a particular percentage should go to administration. I have great admiration for
people who work for charities, but there have been situations where a disproportionate amount
of collections went to pay the people doing the collection on the street. They were hired help.
Is that appropriate? Will the Minister consider that? It may not be directly relevant but there
was a question of payment to employees and so on. People are much more likely to give if
there is a proviso to the effect that 90% of the money obtained goes directly to the front line
services. I participated in a big fund-raising event for a cross-cultural Israeli-Palestinian effort
about this time last year and I made a point that every euro went directly to it. Nothing came
out in terms of expenses and so on. Will the Minister comment briefly on that?
Deputy John Curran: I certainly will comment. I do not disagree with what the Senator is
trying to do, and that is the reason we have the review, but I am not sure if the type of
information the Senator wants would enable the charities to continue in their current format.
The charities will make annual financial returns that will give an indication of the level of
funding going to the charitable cause versus that going towards administration costs and so on
but they will not have people standing on a street with a box saying 88% or 92% goes to the
charity, if that is what the Senator is trying to achieve. For those who are interested in whatever
the charity might be, that type of information will emerge over time because those reports will
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Charities Bill 2007: 4 December 2008. Committee Stage
be published. If we want to develop it from there, the opportunity exists to do that but we will
be collecting that type of data.
Senator David Norris: I understand that and I will not push the matter, but I ask the Minister
to keep this issue under review because I am not thinking in terms of putting information on
the boxes. I am thinking in terms of making a statutory limit, even on a figure like 50%,
because it is absurd to collect money, more than 50% of which does not go to the charity.
What are they collecting for otherwise? I know many people who prefer to give directly to
the charity.
Deputy John Curran: I would prefer if 100% of the collection went to the charity but that is
not the reality. On the returns that will be submitted, we will capture the particulars of all
professional fund-raising agents, consultants engaged etc. The Senator made the point about
50% of the money not going to the charity. We probably do not have sufficient information
available to determine that. That is an arbitrary call. Why not make it 70% or even 30%. Best
practice will emerge over time, and that is the way we are proceeding. I do not disagree with
any of the Senator’s points but as I have said repeatedly, this legislation is to regulate what is
currently happening in this area, and we will move forward from there.
Question put and agreed to.
SECTION 89.
Question proposed: “That section 89 stand part of the Bill.”
Senator Jerry Buttimer: On the section, I want clarity on an issue concerning organisations,
such as Respond, that enter into contractual agreements with Government agencies like the
Health Service Executive. There is a reference to indemnity insurance in the Bill but we need
a commitment that voluntary directors or trustees will not be caught up in a situation where
Government agencies, city councils or county councils renege on commitments given. We must
have a clearer commitment than that.
Deputy John Curran: We dealt earlier with the point that arose concerning Respond. We
amended it on the recommendation of the Law Reform Commission. I would make the point
that we cannot have trustees and directors who are involved in charities being treated somewhat
differently from the way the law already treats them. There is a substantial amount of other
law that deals with the roles and responsibilities, but what we did do, which did not exist
previously, was allow an indemnity system specifically for the trustees of these charities. It is
not necessarily for the individuals to pay for themselves; it can be funded through the charity.
It is an important aspect because as we sit here, there is no such possibility for them.
Question put and agreed to.
NEW SECTION.
Government amendment No. 42:
In page 65, before section 90, to insert the following new section:
“90.—Where a charitable organisation is dissolved, the property, or proceeds of the sale
of the property, of the charitable organisation shall not be paid to any of the members of the
charitable organisation without the consent of the Authority, notwithstanding any provision
to the contrary contained in the constitution of the charitable organisation.”.
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Amendment agreed to.
SECTION 90.
An Cathaoirleach: Amendment No. 43 is in the name of Senators Hannigan, Alex White,
McCarthy, Ryan, Prendergast and Kelly. Amendments Nos. 44 and 51 are related and may be
discussed with amendment No. 43. Senator Hannigan is not in the Chamber. Is the amendment
being moved?
Senator David Norris: I will move it formally on his behalf so that he can return to the issue
on Report Stage.
An Cathaoirleach: Does Senator Norris have his permission to move the amendment?
Senator David Norris: Yes.
Senator David Norris: I move amendment No. 43:
In page 68, line 7, to delete “shall” and substitute “may”.
Senator David Norris: May I speak on the general idea behind it?
An Cathaoirleach: Yes.
Senator David Norris: I want to ask one question of the Minister but it may be more appropriate
to the section. I will be guided by the Cathaoirleach on this. On the reference to Chief
Superintendent and so on, in the past two days, as is my wont coming from my house to here,
which is a short distance, there were three national charities collecting on both occasions. I
support all of them. One was Concern, one was for a children’s hospital and the other the
Society for the Prevention of Cruelty to Children. They were wearing their uniforms and so on
and were clearly visible. They were delightful people. Some of them were Trinity students but
I did not give any of them a euro because I object to three national collections being held on
the one day. In the old days it used to be one. How can one possibly survive that? In the space
of 100 yards I counted 20 people. One could not get past them. It was an ambush. I know the
practice of begging has been examined by this Government and there is legislation prepared
but the position is unbalanced. There used to be a national flag day devoted to the Royal
National Lifeboat Institution, RNLI, another of the charities collecting the other day, and one
was aware of that but they had it to themselves. There were not three or four charities collecting
on the same day. This is craziness, and it will not do any good for the commercial centre of
Dublin. I am sure the Minister noticed swarms of them competing in Grafton Street.
I am not inimicable to the objectives of these charities. By and large the people were nice
and polite. One of them told me I was looking frightfully smart. That is their way of trying to
engage one in conversation and when they have one hooked, they try to squeeze money out
of one. I give quite a lot of money to charity; I am not stingy. I receive appeals from them with
photographs of people starving. My heart bleeds for them and I might send them a cheque for
\50 but it is met with a response thanking me and including even more gruesome photographs
of people with their bellies hanging out, and one has to send them more money. I do not mind
doing that because it is my decision, but I do not like to be ambushed on the street. I can put
up with being ambushed by one person but I do not like having to run the gauntlet of three
official collectors in their uniforms on the same day, in addition to all the Romanians, the Big
Issues collectors and the individuals with one leg or whatever.
Senator Jerry Buttimer: I concur somewhat with what Senator Norris said, particularly on
the integrity of the flag day. In my city of Cork, Share collect in the week leading up to
Christmas. On the Friday or Saturday of a St. Patrick’s weekend, COPE Foundation collect.
We should adhere to the principle that there should be only one flag day per area. That might
not be manageable, and I might be shooting myself in the foot saying this given the large
number of charities that want to operate and collect. In the context of what Senator Norris
referred to, in the cities of Cork, Dublin, Waterford, Galway or Limerick, only one charity
collection per day should be allowed. I do not object to charities collecting. I have collected on
flag days. It is important those who contribute are recognised as charities.
However, I object to people standing at traffic lights in parts of Dublin and Cork with
Squeegee mops and buckets to wash windscreens or selling The Big Issues. I hope, as a consequence
of the legislation and greater liaison between the Garda and the new regulatory
authority, certain on-street practices, which are detrimental to genuine charities, will be eliminated.
As Senator Norris said, they are losing out.
Deputy John Curran: I will deal with the latter issue in the next group of amendments
concerning sealed boxes, which also includes amendment No. 51 in the name of Senator
Buttimer.
Amendments Nos. 43 and 44 aim to allow the Chief Superintendent to refuse a permit,
including in circumstances where he is of the view the collection is likely to be undertaken in
an inappropriate manner. Members of the public have concerns over methods used by some
collectors. It is not right and it does not show the charities in a positive light for collectors to
act in a way that upsets the public. That is one of the reasons I am working with the sector to
develop non-statutory codes of practice on charitable fund-raising. We are trying to bring order,
transparency and regulation to a long-standing activity. It is not my intention to regulate by
means of primary legislation, although the Minister has reserve functions. We have dealt with
charities in a spirit of partnership and co-operation and if codes of practice address the issues
raised by Members, that would be my preferred option. Those discussions will go ahead. Chief
Superintendents currently have considerable scope in issuing permits if they feel they will
adversely affect the public. The scenarios outlined in the amendments are not necessary
because they can refuse permits and, more important, the issues of multiple collections and so
on should be dealt with in the codes of practice.
Senator Paddy Burke: Will the Minister of State explain what is a non-cash collection permit?
Does it involve paying by cheque or credit card? I cannot think of many collections other than
those conducted door to door where non-cash payments would be made.
Deputy John Curran: Non-cash collections typically are conducted door or door or on the
street and involve people signing up to a direct debit or standing order. Money is not put in a
box and it is a long-term donation.
Senator Paddy Burke: Does that cover a local GAA club a draw where people sign a banker’s
order during a door to door collection?
Deputy John Curran: No.
Senator Paddy Burke: How does it differ?
Deputy John Curran: The regulation applies to charities and not every organisation that
fund-raises will be a charity. That distinction needs to be made. Organisations and bodies that
are not charities——
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Charities Bill 2007: 4 December 2008. Committee Stage
Senator Paddy Burke: The Minister of State is ruling out the amendment passed by the
House earlier.
Deputy John Curran: The Senator needs to read the amendment. Political parties are not
charities but they engage in fund-raising. They are subject to the various regulations and they
need permits and so on to collect. However, they are not covered by the charities regulations.
In other words, a local GAA club is not precluded from holding a fund-raising event.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
Amendment No. 44 not moved.
Section 90 agreed to.
SECTION 91.
An Cathaoirleach: Amendment No. 46 is a technical alternative to amendment No. 45 and
amendments Nos. 48, 49 and 51 are related. Therefore, they may all be discussed together
by agreement.
Government amendment No. 45:
In page 70, to delete lines 5 to 10 and substitute the following:
“(a) a collection box into which money is placed shall bear the number assigned in respect
of the collection and specified in the collection permit concerned and shall, unless the Authority
otherwise directs as respects the collection concerned, be sealed in such manner as will
prevent access to money placed in the box while the seal remains in place;”.
Deputy John Curran: The Bill is designed to enhance the security of both cash and non-cash
collections and ,thus, bolster public confidence. To this end, it currently provides that cash
collectors must use a sealed box. This was intended to address the open bucket method, which
can give rise to concerns over the security of the collection. However, this raised concerns
within the charity sector, which were reflected in the contributions of Members on Second
Stage last week, in the Da´ il and in these amendments. The concern was that the provision did
not accommodate collectors giving change to donors where fixed price tokens were sold. While
the legislation is intended to enhance security, it is not intended to unduly hinder collectors or
to discourage potential donors from purchasing a token because the collector cannot provide
change. The approach needed was to allow for exceptions to be made to the sealed box rule
without compromising the general principle underpinning it. I thank Members and sectoral
representatives for their constructive input to this matter. I propose the amendment I agreed
with the Office of the Attorney General be accepted. This will allow the authority discretion
in applying the sealed box provision, which is the principle underpinning the amendments.
Senator Joe O’Toole: The Minister of State’s amendment meets what I was trying to achieve.
I sought a provision to allow access to the box while it was sealed. Collectors for charities that
sell emblems, daffodils and so on for a fixed amount may need to give change and genuinely
need access to the box. I thank the Minister of State for taking this concern of a number of
charities on board.
Senator Jerry Buttimer: I thank the Minister of State for his amendment because this provision
exercised many charities. I pay tribute to the Irish Cancer Society and other charitable
organisations that raised the issue with us and put forward practical solutions. I will withdraw
my amendment on the basis that the rationale behind the Minister of State’s amendment is to
eliminate the difficulty that would have arisen had the Bill not been amended.
However, by being prescriptive, the Minister of State had posed a problem for charitable
collections. It was not his intention but it would have been a major disservice to charities if an
amendment was not made. The operation of such collections has changed. A few years ago,
following the broadcast of “Who Wants to be a Millionaire” on television, charities launched
“Who Wants to be a Thousandaire”. Daffodil Day is one of the best organised charity events
nationally. We all readily subscribe to this cause and its emblem. For example, earlier this week
there was a holly day for the ISPCC. It is important to move away from the concept of floats.
While I would have preferred the Minister of State to accept our amendment, I will not press it.
Senator Paddy Burke: I compliment the Minister of State for tabling the amendment because
there was considerable concern about this issue. Many charitable organisations have done
tremendous work over the past number of years. Senators O’Toole and Buttimer mentioned
Daffodil Day and the Irish Hospice Foundation. Organisations at home have helped to put in
place a scanning machine for my county hospital and the various flag days throughout the
country do tremendous work. I compliment the Minister of State on bringing forward this
important amendment.
Senator Labhra´s O´ Murchu´ : I, too, welcome the Minister of State’s decision in responding
so generously to the concerns we raised on Second Stage. He has also reflected in that decision
the charities that have been mentioned by Senator Buttimer and others, which do such great
work with a whole army of volunteers throughout the country. This makes it workable for
those people to continue with the charitable fund-raising they are already doing.
Deputy John Curran: I thank the Members. I was only made aware fairly late in the day that
this was an issue. I am no different from anybody else. I walk down Grafton Street and elsewhere
and see the boxes for the daffodils and so on. I could easily and instantly recognise the
issue. The problem was to try to address it in a way that still protected what we had in the
sealed box. The whole idea of regulating charity was to enhance its operation, so it had to be
dealt with in that regard. If nothing else, it indicates that the whole aim in the Bill is to try to
protect and not diminish what is happening at present in terms of how the various charities
operate. I am glad the amendment is being accepted.
Senator Joe O’Toole: I thank the Minister of State for being so open to making this move.
While perhaps they are extraneous, I have some points to make. This question stresses the
importance of a bicameral legislature, where issues can be picked up as they go from one
House to the other. As the Minister of State said, this issue was not brought to his attention,
nor to that of most Members. This is very useful for those charities, as were some of the
changes considered earlier by the Minister of State.
The Minister of State should tell his friends to watch what is going on in these Houses. If
somebody is not watching, errors and omissions can happen. One of the problems is that the
work of the Legislature is not reported. All we read about what is going on in the Houses
relates to the rows, the smart quips and all the rest. However, if people do not know what is
going through in terms of legislation, it will hurt those who must try to get changes made
afterwards. There is a case for an Oireachtas channel so people can follow what is happening
in these situations, dull and boring as it might be.
I thank the Minister of State and his officials for dealing with those issues.
Amendment agreed to.
Amendment No. 46 not moved.
An Cathaoirleach: Amendments Nos. 47 and 50 are related and may be discussed together.
Government amendment No. 47:
In page 70, to delete lines 19 to 24 and substitute the following:
“(d) a collection box shall bear the name and registered number of the charitable organisation
on behalf of which the collection is being made in a prominent and clearly legible
manner.”,”.
Deputy John Curran: The Bill currently provides that charities must have the name and
registered number of the charity on the collection box for cash collections, and on the garment
worn by a non-cash collector. In addition, charities are required to display the charitable purpose
in the same way. The sector has made some representations to the effect that were the
charitable purpose to change, for example, were a charity to hold a collection in respect of a
national disaster in one country followed by another collection in respect of another disaster
in another country, under the Bill as currently defined it would have to purchase new garments
or collection boxes, which would give rise to additional costs.
As I am ever mindful of the need not to impose additional compliance costs on charities, I
propose to remove the requirement to show the name of the charitable purpose, though the
charities would still be required to display their names and registered numbers. Without making
it too specific, the name of the charity and the charity number must remain but not the particular
purpose because that can vary and the charity would have to replace boxes, garments
and so forth.
Amendment agreed to.
Amendments Nos. 48 and 49 not moved.
Government amendment No. 50:
In page 70, to delete lines 32 to 40 and substitute the following:
“(i) in the case of a non-cash collection on behalf of a charitable organisation, bears the
name and registered number of the charitable organisation in a prominent and clearly legible
manner, and”.
Amendment agreed to.
Amendment No. 51 not moved.
Question proposed: “That section 91, as amended, stand part of the Bill.”
Senator Paddy Burke: With regard to the publication of bank account details, including the
name and number to which the contributions are made, is this advisable? The account details
would be there for the public at large to see, which may not be in the best interest of the
charitable organisation. I question why it should be made public. People will make their
donations in any case, regardless of whether they know the bank account details.
Senator Maurice Cummins: Senator Burke has made a very good point, particularly in this
day and age when there is much fraud relating to bank accounts. The Minister of State might
explain the displaying of bank account details if that is what is meant in the Bill. I would
certainly have reservations about showing the bank account details of any of the charities.
Deputy John Curran: We should not take this out of context. The part concerning making
banking information available applies where the contributions are to be made in a non-cash
manner. For example, if one is paying a direct debit, obviously one knows the details of one’s
own bank account but not the details of the other bank. Without trying to make it too complex,
it is in that context.
Question put and agreed to.
Sections 92 and 93 agreed to.
Amendment No. 52 not moved.
Sections 94 and 95 agreed to.
Question proposed: “That Schedule 1 stand part of the Bill.”
Senator Jerry Buttimer: The Minister of State made a remark earlier on the inclusion of local
authority members. It is important we would desist from the practice of excluding members of
local authorities from boards, tribunals and authorities. If I heard the Minister of State correctly,
he said they would not be debarred from being included. While I may be wrong, if not,
I hope the Minister of State has not changed his mind. It is important we allow councillors to
be part of the democratic process separate from being members of local authorities. They have
much to offer and many of them are involved in charitable organisations. We deliberately did
not put down an amendment to force a vote on this today. However, it is important we have
recognition of their role. If I heard him correctly, I welcome what the Minister of State has said.
Senator Paddy Burke: I support Senator Buttimer. The Minister of State at the outset said
he was extending the composition of the board and that he would not prohibit local authority
members from being members of the board. I compliment him on taking account of what we
said on Second Stage. We never sought that they would be members of boards but we certainly
do not want one group prohibited from being on the board. I compliment the Minister of State
on those two issues.
I mentioned on Second Stage that I felt the Garda Sı´ocha´na could play a major role in this
Bill and that a member of the Garda Sı´ocha´na should be a member of the board. Gardaı´ have
a great deal to offer as they know more about these organisations than the vast majority of the
public. It is a matter the Minister of State could examine. He did not mention it at the outset
when he spoke about local authority members. I welcome the decision the Minister of State
has made not to preclude local authority members from being members of the board and the
fact that the board will be extended.
Senator Maurice Cummins: How many members will be on the board? A minimum of four
is mentioned in the Bill. Along with my colleagues, I welcome the fact that the Minister of
State will not preclude members of local authorities from becoming members. This has been a
constant theme in the legislation we have seen coming through the House in the past number
of years. Local authority members are treated as second class citizens. Even if they are the
most suitable people to deal with a subject, they are debarred from becoming members of
various boards.
In the Harbours (Amendment) Bill which the House discussed recently, a board will be
reduced from 12 to eight. I am sure if we had a member or two of local authorities on the 17
member board of FA´ S we might not have the problems we do with the board of FA´ S at
present. I am glad the Minister of State will not preclude members of local authorities from
becoming members of this board if they are suitable persons. I am sure many of them are
[Senator Maurice Cummins.]
involved in charities throughout the length and breadth of the country. The people in local
authorities work from communities that in most instances are involved in charitable work. I
welcome the Minister of State’s decision in this regard.
Senator Labhra´s O´ Murchu´ : That local authority members were being precluded on a continuous
basis from State boards and other statutory bodies could be wrongly interpreted as
responding to a caricature of local authority members which had been promoted by certain
people and some sections of the media. This was most unfair because anybody familiar with
the work of local councillors will know full well that they have particularly good experience.
This experience and expertise was being denied to a board.
Although not in the worst sense, it almost seemed racist in a way to set out specifically to
preclude somebody simply because that person served on a local authority. It did not do public
life any credit or justice. I am delighted with what the Minister of State has done in this
legislation and I hope other Ministers respond accordingly. Now, more than ever, we need this
experience. I often felt that when the health boards went out of existence, we lost the conduit
to the public which was particularly important. We see it with the HSE to some extent. I will
not set out to HSE bash because I know it is a complex issue. However, we can see a breakdown
in communication with the public occurred because of the centralisation of the authority of
the HSE.
With the health boards, people were able to make an approach to a local authority member
who, with a telephone call or immediate approach to an official within the health board, was
able to allay the fears of the person who approached him or her. It is important that we put
down a marker at this stage that whatever wrong interpretation was there, it was not the
intention to in some way demonise local authority members and it is difficult to find justification
for precluding them simply because they are members of a local authority.
Senator Camillus Glynn: I compliment the Minister of State, Deputy Curran. I have discussed
with him the matter of local authority members not being precluded. He has applied the good
common sense he invariably displays in his dealings not alone as a Member of the Da´ il, but in
his role as Minister of State, which is not common in many cases. He gave me an indication
and assurance that as far as he was concerned there would be no debarring section in this Bill
in terms of precluding local authority members.
Senator O´ Murchu´ is absolutely correct. Many Bills have been passed with this provision
and I am not here to defend anybody who has included such a provision. It is an outrageous
assumption.
Senator Jerry Buttimer: The Senator voted for it.
Senator Camillus Glynn: It is an outrageous assumption. The right place——
Senator Jerry Buttimer: The Government voted for it in the Harbours (Amendment) Bill.
Senator Camillus Glynn: It is never too late to do the right thing.
An Cathaoirleach: We are moving on with the Charities Bill.
Senator Maurice Cummins: The Government can still do it in the Harbours (Amendment)
Bill.
Senator Jerry Buttimer: The Senator cannot come here and vote against something and speak
out in favour of it.
Senator Camillus Glynn: Perhaps we can bring in some plasticine or building blocks to amuse
Senator Buttimer while the rest of us make a contribution.
Senator Jerry Buttimer: The Senator cannot be two-sided.
An Cathaoirleach: Senator Buttimer please.
Senator Jerry Buttimer: But he is——
An Cathaoirleach: No interruptions please.
Senator Camillus Glynn: Nobody interrupted Senator Buttimer. He should have a little consideration.
Senator Jerry Buttimer: Senator Glynn has no consideration for the Irish people. None
whatsoever.
An Cathaoirleach: Senator Buttimer please.
Senator Camillus Glynn: I compliment the Minister of State. He was true to his word. He
promised me that he would not include a debarring section with regard to local authority
members and this is what he did.
I, along with the Cathaoirleach, was a member of a health board for many years and I decry
and bemoan the fact that local authority members are no longer on visiting committees.
An Cathaoirleach: This is the Charities Bill, not the health boards.
Senator Camillus Glynn: I accept that but I am making a point. When members of a local
authority met constituents who were residents of nursing homes, they were a friendly face and
a conduit to the outside world. It is a pity that this has been lost. I compliment the Minister of
State on what he did in this case.
Senator Donie Cassidy: I join Senators in thanking the Minister of State. We have had a long
hard day working in the House on this important Bill. This is an important section which allows
public representatives who have a wealth of experience and who are the people’s choice to
participate as members of any board on which a Minister of the day thinks they have the
expertise to be able to assist the board members. Members on all sides of the House have
fought hard for this and I wholeheartedly welcome it.
Senator Terry Leyden: I thank the Minister of State, Deputy John Curran. I debated this
issue on Second Stage and put forward a good argument with regard to the exclusion rather
than the inclusion of any qualified person whether a barrister, a garda, a councillor or a teacher.
By right, they should be considered. The Minister of State and I met at the parliamentary party
meeting and I communicated the information to my councillors throughout Ireland and
received a tremendous response to the idea that the Minister of State was considering this
move. Now he has confirmed that he will ensure that councillors will not be——
An Cathaoirleach: Has Senator Leyden written to them yet?
Senator Terry Leyden: I have.
An Cathaoirleach: Very good.
Senator Terry Leyden: I thank the Cathaoirleach. I received a good response. I received a
response from a councillor in Cork who told me she was delighted with the decision of the
Minister of State——
Senator Jerry Buttimer: The Bill has not even been passed yet.
Senator Terry Leyden: She pointed out to me that all her life she has been collecting and
working for charities and she——
Senator Maurice Cummins: Did Senator Leyden tell her that he voted against her membership
in the Harbours (Amendment) Bill?
Senator Terry Leyden: She is not interested in the Harbours (Amendment) Bill.
In an e-mail which I received from her today, she stated this would be a great breakthrough.
It is a great breakthrough for all Members of the Seanad because we have argued this case. It
was raised at parliamentary party level and agreed by the Fianna Fa´ il Parliamentary Party that
there would be no exclusion of councillors. Deputy John Curran is a Minister of State with a
very bright future. If, at some stage in his career, he ever has——
An Cathaoirleach: On the Charities Bill.
Senator Terry Leyden: I am being charitable about it.
An Cathaoirleach: I understand that but we are on the Charities Bill now and we have been
here for a long time.
Senator Terry Leyden: I thank the Minister of State. He is a person who makes a decision
and sticks by it. I am delighted to be associated with this because I spoke on Second Stage and
I am glad the Minister of State agrees with this side of the House because we are the Government
and we have influence.
Senator Maurice Cummins: Senator Leyden voted the local authority members off the harbours
board and Aer Lingus.
Senator Terry Leyden: As I stated the other day, we are not Trappist monks. We have not
taken a vow of silence on this side of the House.
An Cathaoirleach: Does the Minister of State wish to respond on Schedule 1?
Deputy John Curran: I gave an indication at the outset of the debate of some of the amendments
I intend to bring forward on Report Stage. I did so to be helpful and to prevent delays
to the proceedings, which proved to be quite protracted in any event. Members expressed
concerns about the provision whereby councillors would automatically be precluded from membership
of the authority. In this regard, I was asked for the precise number of members of the
authority. That has not been finalised but, as I indicated today, the number will be no less than
nine and no more than 15.
I pointed out that I envisage the authority will have a supportive as well as a regulatory role.
In that regard, I envisage that there will be several sub-committees. It is in this context that I
am looking at the total make-up of the authority. Apart from the regulatory function, I want
it to play an active supportive role. That is something we are currently examining.
I apologise for upsetting Senator Buttimer.
Senator Jerry Buttimer: I assure the Minister of State that I am not upset. It is important, in
devising the composition of the board of the authority and its sub-committees, that cognisance
is taken of the fact that charitable organisations have vast experience. Given that today’s debate
was largely consensual, it is disingenuous of Senator Glynn to lampoon Members on this side
of the House. Let us not forget that Government Members voted against amendments to the
Harbours (Amendment) Bill 2008.
An Cathaoirleach: We are not discussing the Harbours (Amendment) Bill. We are discussing
Schedule 1 to the Charities Bill.
Senator Jerry Buttimer: Let us call a spade a spade.
Senator Terry Leyden: The debate on that legislation is not over.
Senator Jerry Buttimer: It was Senator Leyden who said that Members on that side of the
House were not Trappist monks. Will the Minister of State give recognition to the role of local
authority members by making provision for their inclusion in the membership of the board?
Will he ensure that the majority of board members are from the charitable organisations? We
must learn the lesson of what happened at FA´ S and in the case of political appointments to
other bodies. This authority must not become a card-carrying cumann for Fianna Fa´ il and the
Green Party.
An Cathaoirleach: That is not relevant.
Senator Jerry Buttimer: I am referring to the provisions of the Charities Bill. The Bill relates
to the activities of a vast array of organisations which come under an umbrella body which has
done great work. I pay tribute to those efforts.
Senator Terry Leyden: Does Senator Buttimer recall the appointment of Garret Fitzgerald
to the board of RTE?
Senator Maurice Cummins: Senator Buttimer has covered most of what I wished to say.
Charity begins at home, and that is certainly true as far as Fianna Fa´ il and the Green Party are
concerned. Rather then precluding members of local authorities, I hope the Minister will go
the whole hog and provide for the appointment of a local authority member to the board,
whether from the Local Authority Members’ Association, the General Council of County
Councils, the Association of County and City Councils or the Association of Municipal Authorities
of Ireland. Perhaps the Minister will consider the inclusion of an amendment to that
effect on Report Stage.
Question put and agreed to.
Schedule 2 agreed to.
Title agreed to.
Bill reported with amendments.
