Order of Business - 18th May 2005

Mr. Norris: I again ask for a debate on Iraq.
New material emerges all the time. As I pre
dicted, the Senate committee in America came up
against the shattering force of the truth as told in
a blistering fashion by George Galloway and it
produced the usual weary old tired, forged documents.
It could not even get the date sequence
right. It was an astonishing performance but it
clearly vindicated Mr. Galloway and exposed the
Senate committee. It would be no harm if we continued
to have a rolling debate on this issue.
It is astonishing that there have been approximately
eight or nine killings in the past month.
One would be safer in Chicago these days. This
is part of the inheritance of what is cosily called
the "republican community". This is a taint that
was brought in - the guns, explosives and the
drugs. We know exactly where to look to find
from were this kind material came.
In a way, my next point leads on from that.
Many people have come to the House to talk to
us, including distinguished people of various
kinds. We have listened to their pious aspirations
for this, that and the other, including the European
Union and whatnot. Would it not be a good
idea to invite the McCartney sisters to give evidence
to Seanad E´ ireann on the murder of their
brother and the way in which they were intimidated
by the Provisional IRA and Sinn Fein?
An Cathaoirleach: That is a matter for the
Committee on Procedure and Privileges.
Mr. Norris: I ask that it be referred to the Committee
on Procedure and Privileges.
An Cathaoirleach: There is no procedure for
such a——
Mr. Norris: I think I have found one.

Order of Business - 24th May 2005

Mr. Norris: I join with my colleagues in offering
my sympathy to the parents, teachers and young
schoolfellows of the five young girls killed yesterday.
It is shocking they were cut off at this age in
their teen years. From what I heard on the radio,
they were all pleasant and intelligent people who
would have made a great contribution to life.
I raised this issue in the House on 2 December
1998, with particular reference to special schools.
There were discrepancies between the measures
taken for the safety of children attending special
schools with two or three students occupying one
seat and a lack of safety belts on buses. I suppose
this is not an appropriate moment——
Mr. Norris: However, one can also say it is time
these warnings were listened to. I wanted to raise
it in a way that was not confrontational. However,
when these issues are raised, we are always told
it is not an appropriate moment. When is it an
appropriate moment?
I have consistently raised the issue of how asylum
seekers are stuffed into hostels, which are not
inspected for fire safety. This is another tragedy
waiting to happen. However, we will be told
again, this is not an appropriate moment to raise
it. I am raising it now before there is a tragedy.
Unless we act responsibly towards those people,
stuffed into unhealthy fire hazards, mainly on the
north side of Dublin city, there will be a tragedy
with ten or 20 people killed and again we will be
told it is not an appropriate moment.
Will the Leader organise a debate on the working
conditions obtaining on the MV Normandy?
Workers on the ship, most of whom are from Latvia,
are paid approximately half the national
minimum wage, required to work seven days a
week, 12 hours a day with no holidays. The company
was already involved in a scandal concerning
the employment of a beautician who was paid
\1 an hour. This matter needs to be addressed.
Again, when it is almost over, because we are
alerted by Deputy Joe Higgins, we take up the
issue of the Gama workers. We now know we
have a similar situation with an Irish company.

Order of Business - 25th May 2005

Mr. Norris: I thank the Leader for arranging a
debate on Iraq, which is timely. I agree with my
colleague, Senator O’Toole, on the subject of
Irish placenames. I too love the Irish language. I
do not have Senator O’Toole’s facility with the
language but I occasionally try to use it. Nobody
uses names such as Ceannanas Mo´ r, Ra´th Luirc
and Cu´l an tSu´ daire for Kells, Charleville and
Portarlington. People have the right to name
their own places rather than being bullied by
some nit-wit in Dublin.
An Cathaoirleach: The Senator is using
unparliamentary language.
Mr. Norris: If that language is unparliamentary,
then I substitute it with "lu´ drama´ n".
An Cathaoirleach: The Senator cannot do that.
Mr. Norris: I withdraw both terms.
We need to examine the tax break situation.
Some of the incentive schemes are very good. I
am delighted that Cork has acquired a wonderful
early 19th century view of the city, which was
made possible by tax incentives. Some of the
schemes are good. However, it is obscene that
people who make enormous amounts of money,
some of the wealthiest people in the country, pay
no tax whatsoever, while simultaneously we see
elderly people being pursued by the Revenue
Commissioners because they put money into pension
schemes 20 years ago. There is a sharp contrast
in that scenario.
I ask for a debate on junk mail. There should
be a ban on unsolicited material being pushed
through people’s hall doors. Under the Data Pro
tection Act, an individual can opt out of receiving
such material. We should re-examine the
legislation.
Mr. Dardis: The Senator obviously never canvassed
before.
Mr. Norris: Yesterday alone I received 20 leaflets
inviting me to go to the local off-licence. I do
not need 20 invitations to drink. I also received
four other leaflets ——
Mr. Dardis: The Senator does not need any
invitations.
Mr. Norris: It is funny in one sense, but outrageous
in another. If one is away for a few days,
one’s letterbox is stuffed up and any passing thief
knows well that the house is empty. Apart from
that, it is an invasion of people’s own space. Very
often young lads are hired to deliver the leaflets,
they want to get rid of them, so they shove 20 or
30 into each letterbox.

Order of Business - 31st May 2005

Mr. Norris: I join Senator Brian Hayes in asking
for a debate on nursing homes’ treatment of
the elderly and congratulate a former Member,
now Deputy O’Dowd, who was crucially involved
in this matter. I say that because he is a former
Member of this House and a fine politician not
from any partisan view because there are many
on the other side who are equally concerned and
have a professional commitment in this area. It
was very worrying to see the development of bed
sores. Last night’s broadcast was an excellent
informational programme on which RTE should
be congratulated for having taken the risk.
Attempts were made to prevent RTE showing it.
The programme highlighted issues such as the
development of bed sores. Most people just
assumed, as I did, that bed sores develop automatically
in certain circumstances when people
are old but the experts said there is absolutely no
reason for them if people are turned in their beds
in the proper way. We have learned a great deal
from the programme, which was quite shocking.
We should consider legislation in this area as
we must strengthen the inspectorate. What is the
point of giving warnings to those who are
inspecting? If it is announced in advance that
inspectors are coming to inspect a nursing home,
one blows one’s chances of finding anything
wrong. A nursing home has never been fined or
closed although there are 30 nursing homes
against which there are complaints. I do not
believe this is confined to private nursing homes.
Those elderly persons in the care of the State
need to be looked after also because I know there
are problems in that area, partly because of
understaffing, pressure being exerted on people
and so on. One could not say that in the case of
private nursing homes charging \45,000 per year.
I would expect to get cocktails at 4 p.m. and to
be turned every half an hour if I so decided.
Mr. Norris: As this is an issue that affects all
of us, either directly or through our relatives, the
Seanad should properly consider it.
I wish to raise one further item, a bank robbery
involving a shooting in Navan, because it is a
most interesting situation and one that should
give pause for thought. People are horrified by
the increase in gun crime. I trace it all back to the
so-called republican community because it helped
to introduce guns and drugs into this country but
that does not mean we cannot examine the position.
It is very important to examine the situation.
I was horrified to listen to the unending stream
of gloating calls to the radio which said the gardaý´
should have shot them all. The callers had no
sympathy for the families but the families may
not have had anything whatever to do with it and
they are human beings.
I also feel great sympathy for the gardaý´ who
are decent, fine people. I understand one garda
was in tears which is a very human response.
However, when there is a situation where no shot
was fired from the other side and several shots
came from Garda sources, it is in the interests
both of the Garda Siochana and the citizens of
this country that there should be an independent
inquiry. Otherwise we will be told that what we
have in the South is a shoot to kill policy——
Mr. Norris: ——and we squawked loud and
hard when this was happening in Northern
Ireland. We owe it to the Garda Sý´ocha´na to
make sure an independent inquiry is held. I will
end on this point.
Mr. Norris: The Minister for Defence, Deputy
O’Dea, said in a newspaper article in reference to
Deputy Costello:
As if to add insult to injury, Costello referred
to the Lusk shootings with the extraordinary
phrase: "Where people die as a result of Garda
action, there must be a proper procedures for
an independent investigation into such
incidents".
Is this how Costello and the Labour Party perceive
what happened at Lusk post office?
Mr. Norris: Deputy Costello’s reaction is most
sensible and is in line with what happens in every
civilised country. It is no condemnation of the
Garda Siochana that there must and should be an
independent inquiry.

Order of Business - 1st June 2005

We should have a discussion on charities in
light of the very sad emergence of fraud within
the Christina Noble trust. Like many other
Members of the House I heard her on radio today
and she was absolutely heartbroken. She is a very
remarkable woman who has given her life to
looking after the interests of abandoned children
and people in great difficulties, particularly young
people in Asia. She has been betrayed by people
within her organisation. She has also been let
down by us because charities are not properly
regulated. This entire area needs to be examined.
People can set themselves up as charities quite
easily. There is very little regulation. There is also
the practice where nice, decent young people are
hired to go out and harass people for money.
Sometimes I meet eight different collections on
my way between O’Connell Street and here.
There should be some degree of regulation.
I wish to inform the House that following my
attempt to raise a matter on the Order of Business
some weeks ago, I wrote to Senator O’Toole,
who is our representative on the Committee on
Procedure and Privileges, asking that we invite
the McCartney sisters and Robert McCartney’s
fiance´e to give evidence to us.
An Cathaoirleach: That letter is on file and we
will discuss it.
Mr. Norris: I thank the Cathaoirleach for that
and note it will be discussed.
An Cathaoirleach: The matter should not be
brought to the floor of this House.
Mr. Norris: It is particularly relevant that the
Committee on Procedure and Privileges should
examine this matter on a day when we learn of
the arrest of two people in the North of Ireland.
An Cathaoirleach: That matter will be dealt
with by the Committee on Procedure and Privileges,
not here.

Motion on the Morris Tribunal Reports - 15th June 2005

Mr. Norris: I am glad to have the opportunity
to take part in this debate. I had lunch yesterday
with the former Commissioner, Mr. Pat Byrne.
He reminded me that I had been invited some
years ago to talk at an international convention
on policing in Dublin Castle. I was invited in
order to stir things up and he told me that I most
certainly did. I woke them during the siesta slot
because I spoke about the type of problems
endemic not just in the Garda.
Part of what I said four or five years ago was
fairly prophetic when I look at the report of the
Morris tribunal. However, as Senator White said,
we should not excoriate ourselves and think that
our police force is particularly bad. Senator
McHugh said that it was dangerous to suggest this
is a Donegal phenomenon. However, the
situation can arise if one is not always watchful
which is why I support the Labour proposal
rather than the Government amendment. I do not
know why they could not be run together,
because I also agree with most of the Government
amendment although perhaps it could do
something regarding committees and we would
not have this divisive vote.
We all want to support the institution of the
Garda while looking at the neglect of duty and
the review of Garda procedures following the
crimes and the tragedy that occurred to the
McBrearty family. Many people do not understand
why they could not have been given some
comfort with regard to their fees. Everybody else
seems to have had money thrown at them, including
the legal profession. These people were
forced into a situation where they had to defend
themselves against accusations when they were
framed by the forces of the State. After \1 million
was spent, they could not get the comfort of being
told they would be paid. There is something radically
wrong in such a situation.
People did know. They must have known.
Reports were made. There is ministerial and political
responsibility and all parties should share
this and look into their own hearts. The
McBreartys were framed and ruined and there
was no proper investigation of what turned out to
be an accident. This man was unfortunately killed
in a hit and run. However, no proper procedures
were followed. Then came the idiotic and ludicrous
planting of explosives which were manufactured
in coffee grinders. Vincent Browne made a
laugh out of the situation and in one way he was
right. However, underneath that is something
deeply tragic.
I agree with what Ms White said about Mr.
be protected because they were whistleblowers in
a real and genuine sense and should not suffer
any kind of punishment as a result. The Dean
Lyons case was another dreadful situation, but his
sister’s rights have never been vindicated because
there was no prosecution of the person who actually
committed the crime. Here is an unresolved
situation with no finality.
I am very grateful to be allowed to speak on
this matter. People behaved badly and did wrong,
but we should not be vicious in going after them.
Some say their pensions should be taken away
but what will they live on and what will their
families do? I do not think this is right. We are
always blowing about Christian values, but is it
Christian to reduce them and throw them in the
gutter?

Order of Business - 15th June 2005

Ireland was that her older daughter had remained
at school in her native country. However, the
officials did not realise that this tragic mutilation
had already happened to the older girl and
nothing more could be done. Officials do not
know all the facts and they are making important
decisions. They are not, but should be, accountable.
A register of deportation decisions should
be set up and monitored. We should also ask the
Human Rights Commission to examine the
situation.

Order of Business - 28th June 2005

Perhaps I might raise two more questions very
briefly. I compliment Senator Leyden on introducing
his Bill, which is extremely important. It
addresses a real human problem regarding the
location of wills in the aftermath of someone’s
death. He explained it extremely well on the one
o’clock news. As a long-time member of this
House, I very much welcome the positive publicity
gained for it through a Government
Member, who described himself with uncharacteristic
modesty as a backbencher, using this
House’s facility to introduce a Bill. I am glad the
Senator got Government support and that of
coalition colleagues. I am sure that support will
also be forthcoming from this side of the House.
As a member of the Independent group, I will be
reintroducing a new version of the Bill that I put
forward, the Civil Registration Bill 2003, since the
Government has once again shown an inability to
grapple with the issue, and has characteristically
kicked it into a committee. I am waiting. The
committee will have reported by the autumn at
which stage I will go to work on this matter hammer
and tongs. We are lagging behind disastrously
in the area of civil registration. Switzerland
recently became the sixteenth country in
Europe to introduce legislation in this regard. It
is disgraceful that we are so far behind because
the Government will not bite the bullet.
I ask for a continuing debate on Iraq. Thisis
particularly important in light of recent international
reports, published in the United States,
which have begun to focus on the use of Shannon
Airport in the process of extraordinary rendition.
We must clean up our act now that the outside
world has got wind of this story. I and others
informed police about a prima facie case involving
the criminal use of the aircraft in question,
but nothing was done. As a Parliament, we are
entitled to some answers on these issues.

Order of Business - 29th June 2005

Mr. Norris: I would like to refer to No. 1, a
motion on the Treaty of Amsterdam and the
exchange of information. The Acting Leader said
he wants to take the matter without debate. It
was tabled, but each day a list of items are tabled
on the back of the Order Paper. Most of these
items go through on the nod. I would like to enter
a caveat here and I would like the Acting Leader
to refer the matter to the appropriate Minister. I
am concerned about any exchange of information
deriving from the use of torture. This matter has
been actively discussed in Britain and some authorities
appear to have very little difficulty with
the referral of prisoners to third countries so that
they can be tortured. It amounts to outsourcing
torture. I would be very concerned about
allowing such a situation to go through on the
nod, therefore, I ask the Acting Leader to raise
my concerns with the appropriate Minister.
I support Senator Brian Hayes in seeking a
debate or holding a protest against what has been
happening in Zimbabwe over many years. Over
the years, I have raised the matter on the
Adjournment. Independent Senators have a
motion down on Zimbabwe. There is an atrocious
situation where a dictator, after a completely
fraudulent election, is now terrorising his own
people. He is creating mass famine. "Operation
clear out the rubbish" is how he describes his own
citizens. This man is a beast who needs to be confronted.
I hope the South African authorities will
do something about the issue. I find it very difficult
to be optimistic about a man like Thabo
Mbeki, who said he thinks AIDS can be cured by
eating spinach. His views on Zimbabwe are just
as out of touch with reality.
I would like to raise the issue of risk equalisation.
It was felt there should be some discussion
on this matter. It appears from what has been said
that the deferral of risk equalisation is part of the
preparation for the possible privatisation of the
VHI. We are entitled to a say in this matter
because it will be a disaster, just as the privatisation
of Telecom Eireann has been a disaster.
Mr. Norris: In the past couple of weeks the
directors of Eircom, including Tony O’Reilly,
took enormous sums of money for running the
worst telecom service in Europe. There is no
investment in it. I am waiting for six months to
get my telephone fixed. I am just one of many
people in this situation. There is growing dissatisfaction
with the service and it is appalling that fat
cats can bleed a company, put no investment into
it and give a lousy service, which is one of the
worst in Europe. The same applies to Bord Gais.
No one will take any responsibility. They outsource
services.
Mr. Norris: We should have a debate not just
on this issue but on the whole ideology of privatisation.

Joint Committee on Transport - 26th July 2005

Aer Lingus Voluntary Redundancy Scheme: Presentations.

The purpose of this meeting is to discuss recent media reports on the Aer Lingus voluntary redundancy scheme.



Chairman: Will Mr. Sharman confirm that these letters were sent in 2003 and not, as Mr. McQuillan has said, in 2004?
Mr. McQuillan: I did not say they were sent in 2004.
Chairman: For the information of the committee, Mr. McQuillan should have stated the other letter was sent in 2003-----
Mr. McQuillan: May I respond?
Chairman: -----rather than 2004, which gives a different slant to the issues in question.
Mr. McQuillan: We are trying to establish the mind-set of the company -----
Chairman: I ask Mr. McQuillan to refrain. I have called Deputy Connaughton.
Senator Norris: It is not appropriate to harass the witness.
Chairman: I have not done so.
Senator Norris: I believe the Chairman is harassing the witness.
Mr. McQuillan: I agree.
Senator Norris: It is a requirement on the Chairman to be impartial in the conduct of the business of this committee.
Chairman: I hope I am impartial.
Senator Norris: I do not believe that is the case.

Senator Norris: The principal witnesses on both sides seem to be people of reason, decency and integrity and I hope that some accommodation can be reached between them. However, there is a great deal of semantics involved.
Will Mr. Sharman indicate why, if this is not a business plan, it so describes itself? It is clear that it says it is a business plan. Will Mr. Sharman agree that it is intended to demoralise the workforce, with a view to getting people to take an exit route? What is the meaning of the word "voluntary"? Does it include pressure? It begins to sound very much like the American definitions of torture, which tend to equivocate greatly. Does Mr. Sharman agree that the avoidance of the transfer of undertaking would be illegal, and, therefore, not something to be contemplated by a company such as Aer Lingus?
With regard to the tap on the shoulder, Mr. Sharman described that, rightly perhaps, as use of emotive language but it is used in the document. He indicated that he was concerned about the leaking of the document, the intention of which was to create anxiety.
Does Mr. Sharman not agree that the existence of this document, alone would create a good deal of anxiety because it suggests something about business practice and, in particular, very poor industrial relations in Aer Lingus?

Order of Business - 1st July 2005

Mr. Norris: I do not agree with Senator Brian
Hayes’s comments on the Minister for Justice,
Equality and Law Reform. The case in Clonmel
is tragic and, as Senator Mansergh suggested, an
automatic inquiry should be held into such circumstances.
I am not sure it would have been
appropriate for the Minister to cite specific cases.
We are often told it is not appropriate to name
people in this House as it may rehash their grief.
As long as the instrument is available, and is
effectively used, it did not matter a damn in this
instance where it was announced. There are other
far more serious circumstances in which the
House is bypassed.
The tragic situation in Zimbabwe has been
raised several times in the past two weeks. We
heard of nuns trying to look after babies with
AIDS who had been thrown out onto the street.
However, there is some good news. I met with
Mr. Roy Bennett some 18 months ago. His case
was raised by me and some other Senators,
including Senator Ross who raised it on the
Adjournment and kindly shared time with me.
Yesterday I heard that Mr. Bennett had been
released from prison, partly as a result of efforts
of people in this House. That is something positive
on which to end the term.
I look forward to the introduction of legislation
in the autumn governing the rights of workers
coming to this county. I hope amendments will be
accepted in this House. Based on what we know
at the moment it is not generous legislation. In
America they ask for the huddled masses and the
poor. We ask the developing world for its doctors,
lawyers and graduates. We ask for all its talented
people and if they are really good we will let them
stay for five years. If we need them for any more
exploitation they can remain for another period
and then we will kick them out when we have
bled them dry. That is not the correct way to
approach this situation.

Order of Business - 30th June 2005 - Shell Oil

Order of Business - 30th June 2005

Mr. Norris: I support Senator Brian Hayes and those others who expressed their concern at the situation regarding the five Mayo farmers who have been jailed. There should be no criticism of the judge, who has simply implemented the law as he is required to do. However, the history of Shell certainly gives us a great deal about which to be concerned. I was one of several people in this House who raised concerns at the time that this deal was struck; we thought there was something very fishy about it. It was not in the interest of the people of the west of Ireland and was an extremely bad deal from a rapacious multinational company with an appalling environmental history.
As Senator Ryan said, one need only go to Nigeria and ask the Ogoni people. We saw what happened to Ken Saro-Wiwa and how Shell drove pipelines over the Nigerian countryside, devastating it with complete disregard for all environmental concerns. Then it tried to buy its way out of it with a PR campaign, and we were foolish and gullible enough to accept that. We should support the farmers. One must remember that it is their land, and the Constitution recognises rights to property. Historically, the Government has been extremely reluctant to intervene using the public good criterion, yet this bullying multinational can do it.