Health Bill 2008 - Second Stage Debate - Friday 12th December 2008

Health Bill 2008 - Second Stage - 12th December 2008
Senator David Norris: I wish to raise a point of order.
An Cathaoirleach: I call Senator Norris.
Senator David Norris: Members have abolished the Order of Business and the Government has abolished the Combat Agency and the Equality Authority. One does not know what will happen next.
An Cathaoirleach: That is not a-----
Senator David Norris: That was the preface to the point of order I wish to raise.
An Cathaoirleach: What is the point of order?
Senator David Norris: As no Order of Business has been scheduled today, is it appropriate to commence proceedings without a quorum? What number constitutes a quorum?
An Cathaoirleach: We have a quorum.
Senator David Norris: Is a quorum present in this House? Every committee and sub-committee requires a quorum-----
An Cathaoirleach: Senator Norris, a quorum is present.
Senator David Norris: I asked what number constitutes a quorum.
An Cathaoirleach: A quorum is 11 Members and the Chair.
Senator David Norris: That is helpful and I thank the Cathaoirleach.
Senator Donie Cassidy: One is always learning in this House.
An Cathaoirleach: The Minister of State should proceed.
Senator Mary M. White: Every day one learns something new.
Senator David Norris: I am always trying to learn. It is a pity the Government is not.
An Cathaoirleach: The Minister of State, without interruption.


Senator David Norris: I will not welcome the Minister of State to the House. There
is nothing personal in that and, for all I know of the Minister of State, Deputy Hoctor, she is an estimable woman.

Senator David Norris: Yes, absolutely, but I do not welcome any Member of this disgraceful Government to this House. The Government has behaved barbarously in this and in many other areas. When I listen to people on that side of the House talking about protecting the vulnerable and the weak, I wonder how they dare to engage in such bare-faced hypocrisy, following the budget and the destruction of the Combat Poverty Agency and the Equality Authority. There are plenty of little voices over there that would like to speak out, and if the Green Party has guts, conscience or decency, this is the time for it to get out of this corrupt and discredited Government. I completely condemn it and no Minister will get a welcome from me in this House as long as the Government continues its savage attacks on the most vulnerable elements in our society, even stifling their voice. The Government is a disgrace and it is time it went.
There is a lot of hypocrisy over there. I listened to some of the debate here and heard the people on that side of the House whinging about being interrupted and then heckling, hectoring and cat-calling to this side. I am not Opposition, but Independent, and I believe I show it. I vote with the Government when it has decent policies. Yesterday in this House I commended the Government including the Green Party Minister of State on the manner in which they handled the pig crisis, but I will not stand for rubbish and hypocrisy. We are told about tough decisions and asked to support them. I would support any tough decisions if the Government really took them, but I will not support lies, evasion and hypocrisy. These decisions are not tough, they are just stupid.
If the Government thinks it can mask a stupid decision and describe it as tough, then it is very much mistaken and the Irish people certainly have it rumbled. The Government is asking, in effect, "What good is it to knock, knock, knock when we must be constructive?" Not much is constructive about what is happening here today in this Bill. I understand that perhaps it was foolish to have made these concessions, but it was the Government that did it, as a cynical vote-getting exercise. Now it is going to batter old people over the heads to get back a few bob, to take its bribe back, because that is what it was.
We are in a difficult financial situation, but who got us into it, not I? It was not people on this side of the House but rather those on the Government side, with their corrupt relations with the construction industry, for one thing. We are in a difficult situation globally, but Ireland is far worse off than most other countries in Europe because of the way the Government carried on, with its squandermania, and it is still at it. It destroyed the Combat Poverty Agency. One of the Members on the Government side of the House put on record a few days ago the fact that it will actually cost money to destroy the Combat Poverty Agency. Let us not have any more of this lying. We saw yesterday that councillors are to share €10 million - another little bribe. Why is the Government handing out €10 million to people as a type of golden handshake, which is not required? Why is it doing that while destroying the Combat Poverty Agency to save a minute proportion of that sum. This is outrageous.
I am glad, however, as Senator de Búrca pointed out, that the appalling situation where people could be widowed one day and have the medical card removed from them the next, is being amended. It was not amended, however, out of any sense of decency, but rather because Deputy Alan Shatter - with whom I disagree on many issues - pointed out that it would be unconstitutional and would not have survived.
Deputy Máire Hoctor: It was not Deputy Shatter's idea.
Senator David Norris: Well, I believe it would be unconstitutional, and the Minister of State is not a lawyer and so my opinion is as good as hers.
Senator Frances Fitzgerald: I believe it is still in there for the three years.
Senator David Norris: In that case, why does the Government not do the decent thing and get rid of it altogether?
An Leas-Chathaoirleach: Senator Norris, without interruption.
Senator David Norris: I thank the Leas-Chathaoirleach, although I do not mind. They can disgrace themselves as much as they like and I shall give back just as good as I get.
It is also cack-handed. The Government was warned about this and took no notice. It received a report from the Department of Finance, wondering whether the significant risks had been spotted, apart from anything else. The Departments of Health and Children and Finance were told there were significant risks attached to the move to abolish the automatic entitlement to a medical card for the over 70s. That was before the budget on 10 October, and the Department of Health and Children appears not to have considered the risk to be of sufficient concern so as not to accept it. That was its brazen attitude at the time. There was a one and half page report suggesting that there would be widespread anger, and pointing out a series of difficulties, namely, that the doctors would be at a loss of income from the higher capitation grant and might refuse to take on the new over-70 GP visit-only cardholders, the GPs might seek to use their industrial relations muscle or they might pursue the legal contract route, similar to the pharmacists, to restore all or part of their income. The report warned that if it succeeded with the annual cash grant in place under the new arrangement, it could remove the projected savings and possibly even increase the cost of the medical card scheme, yet it went ahead with it.
I know the Minister put the word "fortunately" before the diatribe about people daring to live longer. I apologise, because I am 64, and I might go on to 70, 80 or 90. I shall live as long as I damn well please.
Senator Mary M. White: Hear, hear.
Senator David Norris: I should declare an interest. I am lucky in having plan E, the most expensive plan available. I can be sick at my leisure any time I want. However, it is disgraceful that the most vulnerable, about whom the Government side prates all the time, are not protected in this way. As for the millionaires, I ask the Minister of State to show me one. I live in the north inner city. There are plenty of rich people around from the suburbs. I do not see queues of Rolls Royces outside the State clinics. If the Minister of State can show me where they are and give me a list of the multimillionaires that are soaking up resources, I shall be obliged. That is all rubbish. It is not true, and we all know it and, therefore, the Government should not be using it.
I believe in a universal system. There was a very interesting letter in the newspapers from three very distinguished doctors, Mr. Hugh Flood, consultant neurologist, Dr. Gerry Burke, consultant obstetrician and gynaecologist and Professor Pierce Grace, consultant vascular surgeon at the Regional Hospital Limerick. They put on the record facts to the effect that just over a quarter of Irish citizens are covered by the medical card and about half are covered by private medical insurance, which might say something about our national health service. If a quarter are covered by the medical card and half insure themselves, that would indicate people are voting with their wallets on this one. A quarter of the citizenry have no insurance whatever and, therefore, there could not possibly be a greater argument for universal health care.
The figures were worked out. The HSE board was told that the cost of each new medical card this week was €1,650, but one of the private health insurers was offering coverage for €635 per annum. I do not know whether we could buy into that for the vulnerable citizens. Everybody in this country should be treated equally. That is what was said in the 1916 Proclamation which the Government side seems to have forgotten. I am amazed. Are there any republicans left? I sometimes wonder. We had the call for a boycott on Newry the other day. That is great Thirty-two County republicanism. Now it is a case that one cannot be a millionaire or live long because it is unpatriotic. Why did the Minister for Finance not say that it was unpatriotic to go on living, and that we ought to die out of decency and respect for his cack-handed budget? Well, I am not going to do that.
Senator Jerry Buttimer: Hear, hear.
Senator David Norris: A programme of nationalising the existing private hospitals would accelerate the positive elements and provide the capacity necessary to implement a national scheme. It could be done. Universal health care could be provided promptly, and fairly inexpensively, by the simple measure of giving a medical card to those who cannot afford it, and selling it to those who can. The Government has the money. It could scrap the pay-off to the councillors.
It might be argued that I am being sensational and expecting to get a headline. I am not. There is no "Oireachtas Report" tonight because this House has made itself so insignificant, through the Government playing around with it, that RTE cannot be bothered covering the Seanad. It would be very quickly covered if this were the Dáil. Neither will these proceedings be covered in the newspapers. I feel obliged, only out of honour to put these matters on the record. I want to signal to the Government that I am only one independent voice, and it will get no co-operation from me on anything.

I will call quorums all over the place. A Leas-Chathaoirligh, can we have a quorum?
Notice taken that 12 Members were not present; House counted and 12 Members being present.

Senator David Norris: Is the House quorate?
An Cathaoirleach: Is the Senator calling for a quorum?
Senator David Norris: Yes.
Notice taken that 12 Members were not present; House counted and 12 Members being present.

Request to Move Adjournment of the Seanad under Standing Order 30. ^
An Cathaoirleach: I have received notice from Senator David Norris regarding a motion that he wishes to raise under Standing Order 30. I ask the Senator to give notice of the motion before I give my ruling.
Senator David Norris: I ask that the House be adjourned to discuss a matter of urgent national interest, namely, the destruction of the Combat Poverty Agency and the Equality Authority. I understand it is not possible for those supporting me to be named on the instrument, but I am being supported by Senators Francis Fitzgerald and Phil Prendergast. Everybody will agree this is a matter of national urgency, and the Government will pay a price for it. The issue has now hit the Joe Duffy show. The Minister who said-----
(Interruptions).
An Cathaoirleach: The Senator has made his point. Having given careful consideration to the matter raised by Senator Norris, I cannot consider it to be a matter contemplated by Standing Order 30. I regret, therefore, that I have had to rule it out of order.
Senator David Norris: Could the Cathaoirleach give me some information as to what matters are considered by the Seanad to be of national urgency?
An Cathaoirleach: I can discuss the matter privately with the Senator.
Senator David Norris: I recall a day when one of the Chair's predecessors ruled that something was not a national emergency when, within hours of the debate, the Taoiseach was ruling it was, in the Dáil. Are we on a different planet? Why is the Order not abolished altogether, for all the use it is?
An Cathaoirleach: In accordance with the Order of the House yesterday, the sitting should now suspend for 30 minutes. Does the Leader now propose a change?
Senator Donie Cassidy: I have been requested by the Minister and officials to allow 45 minutes from the time of leaving the House after Second Stage. I propose for the consideration and support of the Members that we adjourn until 3.15.
Senator David Norris: No. There will be no co-operation on this.
Senator Donie Cassidy: If Members have difficulty with that, we will revert to the proposal agreed to yesterday, a 30-minute suspension.
Sitting suspended at 2.40 p.m and resumed at 3.10 p.m.