Joint Foreign Affairs Committee - 1st February 2008 - Palestinian Dev. and Humanitarian Aid

Joint Foreign Affairs Committee - Palestinian Development and Humanitarian Aid - 1st February 2008.

Senator David Norris: I welcome this morning’s meeting and the contributions that have been made. I have long supported the right of the state of Israel to exist and challenged the obscenity that is anti-Semitism whether it occurs here, in Europe or the Middle East. I must show my credentials because I am highly critical of the Israeli Government and its policies and the European Union.
Deputy Higgins clearly made his point on the significance of the Palestinian election; we may not like Hamas but, having heard of à la carte Catholicism, this matter has given an example of à la carte democracy. We have refused to recognise the perfectly legitimate and internationally validated election of a legitimate authority, simply because we do not like it. In my book that puts a very peculiar gloss on democracy. I understand Mr. McMahon’s difficulties but I find the following statement coy:

Irish Aid has also contributed towards public service salaries in Palestine, including teachers’ salaries. This amounted to €1 million last year and was channelled through a temporary mechanism managed by the European Commission.
That was a squalid deal that was let out and the attitude of the European Union was utterly shameful. The international community, particularly the European Union and our Government, has signally failed to vindicate the bare, essential human rights of the Palestinian people. This is why I feel outraged about this situation.
The people in Gaza have had an appalling time and I know this because I have visited the area and know it reasonably well. The conditions there are shocking. I have condemned the rocket attacks emanating from the area but they are the responsibility of maverick mobile units that do not necessarily represent the local population. Members of these units disperse as soon as the rockets are fired and the Israelis then hit back at local civilians, resulting in terror.
There has been a deliberate, callous and continuous strangulation of Gaza. An Israeli Minister said those in Gaza will not die as a result but will only lose some weight and I find this comment shameful. That individual should have been severely chastised for making a joke of the suffering of others. Ireland is complicit in what I believe is a war crime because under Article 4 of the Geneva Convention collective punishment, which this is, is defined as such. The difference is that these mobile units are not an official organ of a Palestinian state; they are rogue elements that are condemned by the international community. My problem with the Israeli response to the situation in Gaza is that military actions and actions by civilian authorities, such as the closing of power stations, are carried out with the political sanction of the Israeli Government and are supported by that state’s armed forces. In my book this is a distinction that should be recognised.
The need for action was mentioned and I have been criticised by people who strongly support the state of Israel for making certain recommendations in the past. For example, I suggested that the human rights protocols attached to the external association agreement between Israel and the European Union should be applied. An even milder suggestion is that we should establish a monitoring mechanism; what is the point of having human rights protocols if we ignore war crimes? Can we at least establish a mechanism to monitor the human rights situation in the light of events in Gaza? Is this too much to ask? Are we afraid of knowing what is going on?
The cutting of electricity supply to Gaza does not merely result in people sitting in the dark and missing their favourite television programmes; it results in infants dying in incubators, elderly people having respirators switched off and vaccines perishing because they are not properly refrigerated. It is not a question of discomfort and people losing a bit of weight, it is a question of people dying and we have a responsibility in this matter. It is tragic for the people of Palestine that Gaza has become for them the equivalent of the land of bondage. As Deputy Higgins and others asked, what sort of conditions must exist when half the population of a territory escapes through a breach in a wall?
My distinguished colleague, Deputy Shatter, asked whether the wall has affected suicide bombings. It appears that it has and I welcome every life that is saved. I used to get the bus home next door to the Sbarro pizzeria where an entire family was wiped out by a suicide bombing so I am not on the side of the bombers. However, the same result would have been achieved had the wall been built legally on Israeli territory, rather than being used in a massive illegal land grab. This is where I have problems with the wall. Had it been built legally the Israeli Government would not have been able to incorporate illegal settlements into Israeli territory. This is the answer to Deputy Shatter’s question on the issue.
There is also a question of disproportionality. There are remarkable people in Israel of whom I have spoken previously in this committee. Physicians for Human Rights includes the most distinguished doctors in Israel who queue in rain and mud to treat their fellow human beings in these camps. These doctors are mocked by mere squirts of soldiers of 18 years of age. I ask those present today to consider what their feelings would be if confronted by the kinds of incidents recounted by Richard Crowley in his splendid recent book on this situation. He tells of a Palestinian farmer, who was not politically active and whose family had inhabited the area for many generations, who was stopped and arbitrarily refused permission to visit the next village by two people, a Russian and an American. He was a human being in his own land.
I suggest to the Chairman that a group from this committee could visit the area as one did previously.

Chairman: I will come to that matter.

Senator David Norris: As the Chairman may know, I have been involved in two illegally settled occupied villages, Susya and At-Tuwani in south Hebron, through my former partner, Ezra Yitzhak Nawi. The people there are deprived of precisely what we have spoken of - clean water, electricity and basic medical services. A programme has been established to change this. I held a fundraising event and, thanks to the generosity of the Irish people, I am delighted to say €55,000 was raised to help the villages, some of which was channelled through Trócaire. I have received pictures of the wind-based electricity generators and solar panels that are now there and clean water is accessible but I am afraid the Israelis will demolish all this. Deputy Shatter has asked what has happened to these projects and the money involved but this is a question he could legitimately direct at the Israeli Embassy. Many projects have been destroyed and I would like this committee to extend its protection to the villages of Susya and At-Tuwani to ensure basic resources there for ordinary, non-political people are safeguarded. I do not feel this destruction should go without strong criticism from this committee. We should be vigilant of developments in these villages as they are representative of the bigger issue.
It is a tragic situation and I sympathise with both sides; I know the town of Stirot and so on. We must ensure that there is proportionality. We have absolutely failed to vindicate the human rights of Palestinians at the most basic level. Only through their vindication will we be able to move towards peace for both peoples of that troubled land.

Deputy Michael Noonan: I will direct my question to Mr. McMahon. The Chairman recently met the Israeli ambassador and circulated a note to us about the meeting. The note stated “The Ambassador said he was aware that Ireland provided funding to the Palestinians, adding that he was not 100% sure that some of the money was going where it was intended”. That seems to be a diplomatic allegation of either misappropriation or misdirection of Irish Aid funding. Could Mr. McMahon inform us of whether there is any basis to this and what it is?

Deputy Seán Ardagh: I am new to the committee, so the witnesses will excuse me if I do not know as much about the situation as some of the members who have already spoken. It appears that it would be in the interests of Israel to have the economic circumstances of the Palestinian people dramatically improved. As we have seen in other parts of the world, when economic circumstances improve people’s desire to pick up arms decreases dramatically. In this regard, free movement between Gaza and the West Bank and access to the markets of the outside world would significantly enhance the economic viability of Palestine. My question relates, to return to what Senator Norris said, to the proportionality of Israel’s response in not allowing free movement or access to outside markets. Is that level of response proportionate in comparison to the responses of other countries in difficult circumstances? I know one cannot be matched with the other, but I am sure there are institutes and think-tanks around the world which have examined this in detail. Is the response proportionate or is it way out of line?

Senator Mark Daly: I am deeply disturbed by what Deputy Noonan said. I was not aware of the allegation by the Israeli ambassador, Dr. Zion Evrony, that Irish aid was not going to where we had intended. I understand that it is going where it is intended. I suggest that we write to the ambassador and ask him whether he has evidence for this.

Chairman: It was not an allegation. It was just a question.

Senator Mark Daly: It was as good as an allegation. If one said that in Kerry it would be an allegation.

Senator David Norris: Kerry is full of allegations.

Senator Mark Daly: And I know all the alligators.
If the Israeli ambassador has any evidence of our taxpayers’ money going where it is not intended he should provide it and if he cannot provide it he should write us an apology.

Senator Ivor Callely: I congratulate the agencies on the work they are undertaking and encourage them to keep it up. It is much appreciated. We all understand that the political and humanitarian situation continues to worsen, as has been outlined. It is regrettable to see the continuation of poverty, violence and human rights abuses, particularly because of the length of time it has been going on. We are talking about 60 years of this. As a child I can remember hearing about the West Bank, Gaza, the Palestinians and the Israelis but not quite understanding it. It is regrettable that although so much is being poured into the area by so many different authorities, no great progress is being made. If, as we all agree is likely, the conflict between the Israelis and the Palestinians deepens, all that will happen is a worsening of the humanitarian crisis, particularly inside the Gaza Strip.
While I appreciate and welcome the call by Christian Aid and Trócaire for the committee to respond - maybe some day we will deal with this in detail - the international community has failed to respond. With the fund of expertise and energy that is out there and available to help, is there any extra mile we can go towards coming up with a mechanism? I have noted some of the suggestions for a monitoring body and, as mentioned by Deputy Michael D. Higgins, a secretariat. What other issues have been mentioned in the various international discussions on this issue?
I wish to pay tribute to Mr. Brendan McMahon, the director of the emergency and recovery section of Irish Aid. He has done tremendous work over the last 18 months and I wish him continued success in his endeavours, as I do to Trócaire and Christian Aid.

Deputy Rory O’Hanlon: I thank the panel for a very good presentation. We have talked a lot about the humanitarian situation. The obvious solution to that is to find a political end to the conflict. Do the panel members have any views on where we should be going from here? I agree with the point made by Deputy Shatter that when there is an atrocity it tends to delay progress between the protagonists. What we saw in Northern Ireland was that it was only when we got beyond the politics of the last atrocity - when we had politicians of vision who were able to rise above that - that we saw any progress. What are the views of the panel members on where the political solution is going or whether there is anything we can do?

Chairman: We have all had an opportunity to speak, so we will take the replies. Would Mr. Kilcullen, Mr. Bell, Ms Boden or Mr. McMahon like to reply?

Mr. Brendan McMahon: I will go first.

Chairman: We do not expect you to resolve everything.

Mr. Brendan McMahon: I will deal with the issue raised by Deputies Noonan and Shatter about where the aid money is going. I can assure the members that Irish Aid is very careful about monitoring and evaluating everything it does, which includes our programme in Palestine. Mechanisms for this are built into the programme and the role of our representative office in Ramallah is crucial in this regard. We are aware of these allegations from the publication NGO Monitor. The Minister of State at the Department of Foreign Affairs, Deputy Michael Kitt, met with the Israeli ambassador and provided the necessary assurances that our money is going exactly where it is intended and that everything is above board. Those assurances were accepted by the Israeli ambassador. I would like to set this matter to rest.

Deputy Alan Shatter: I asked Mr. McMahon to explain to what extent we could detail the concrete results of the aid we send to the area, and I asked about the total amount of aid in the past ten years.

Mr. Brendan McMahon: I do not have the figure for the past ten years. I will have to write to the Deputy about that. I will also write to the Deputy with regard to the evaluations carried out on the programmes we have funded.

Deputy Alan Shatter: These programmes are very important and I do not want to give the impression that I disapprove of them. I agree with what was said by another speaker, namely, improving the economy of both the West Bank and Gaza is very important. There is also a major importance in bringing the violence to an end. Until that happens there will not be a viable peace process. It is important that we know we are spending our money and that we think it is working satisfactorily but also what the concrete outcomes are.
Over a ten-year continuum a huge amount of money has been spent in the area, not just from Ireland but across Europe and other parts of the world. I do not say this to undermine Irish Aid or the work of Mr. McMahon but there was a major problem of corruption in that area. It is part of the reason Hamas was successful in the election. There was a reaction against the corruption endemic in an earlier Palestinian administration. It is of major importance that it is no longer taking place and that we know that money is being used in projects that have come to fruition. It would be of interest to the committee to know that.
We have committed ourselves to contributing €40 million arising from the donor conference towards the end of last year. It is important that the public believes what we are doing is credible and that funds are not being siphoned off for other purposes. What are the concrete outcomes of our expenditure over the past decade? It is an important issue. I wish the delegation well in its work this year.
I expected Senator Norris to say what he said and it is becoming repetitive. The problem is that one cannot criticise the Israelis if some infrastructure is the subject of destruction when there is a war zone and they seek to defend themselves against rocket attacks. We must end the violence. The problem we all have with Hamas is that it is not interested in the peace process. It will not end the violence and will not recognise the Israeli state. It has used Gaza as a launching pad for rockets. The arguments about proportionate or disproportionate retaliation are extraordinarily spurious. I do not know what Senator Norris is suggesting. On 16 January 2008, it was estimated that 100 rockets were fired from the Gaza Strip into Israel. Is Senator Norris suggesting that an appropriate and proportionate response would be to send 100 rockets back into the Gaza Strip? I disagree with this.

Senator David Norris: Is Deputy Shatter suggesting the British Army should have bombed Dundalk during the Provo campaign? It is the same argument.

Deputy Darragh O’Brien: Deputies asked a number of questions of the delegation.

Deputy Alan Shatter: The Senator knows the stupidity of that response.

Senator David Norris: I do not need to be lectured on my boringness, repetitiveness and stupidity by someone who exhibits those same qualities in the same measure.

Deputy Alan Shatter: Economically, we will not solve the problem and reap the benefits of Irish aid until the violence ends. Unfortunately, we will dissipate some resources in the context of the ongoing violence.

Chairman: Deputy Shatter must appreciate that everyone at this meeting appreciates these difficulties. There is no difference between us on that matter.

Deputy Alan Shatter: There is substantial difference of emphasis, based on the contributions made by some people.

Chairman: It is a question of how to get a lasting solution.

Deputy Rory O’Hanlon: Is it possible to hear some of our guests because we are being called to vote?

Chairman: We took the trouble to examine Irish aid and what is happening. We will discuss it later but everything we saw was going directly to the people intended. There is also the question of other moneys.

Mr. William Bell: I thank the committee for the opportunity to appear before it on behalf of Christian Aid and Trócaire. The debate that this meeting is turning into demonstrates the level of polarisation and passion on both sides. We could take this as a microcosm of the situation in the Middle East, demonstrating why we are in the current stalemate.