Order of Business - 22nd April 2008

Order of Business - 22nd April 2008
Senator David Norris: Will the Leader contact the Minister for Foreign Affairs to wish him success with the forthcoming international diplomatic conference on cluster munitions, to be held in Croke Park? I hope a treaty can be produced on foot of that meeting. In light of the resolutions which were passed unanimously on an all-party basis by the Joint Committee on Foreign Affairs and this House, it is important for the Minister, Deputy Dermot Ahern, to hold the line in the interests of everyone. European countries that persist in manufacturing these appalling instruments of misery and death will be represented at the conference. They will seek to weaken what is already on the table. I hope we will hold the line in that regard. In that context, I welcome the announcement made a week ago or so by the Minister that the process of disinvestment of this State's pension funds, etc. in companies that are associated with the munitions trade has commenced. We had been looking for such an announcement for some time.
Can the Leader arrange a debate on the extraordinary disappearance of hundreds of children who had been placed in care by the Health Service Executive? We have no record of them. We do not know where they are or what has happened them. Some of them appear to have ended up in the sex trade, which is not something this country should support.
I welcome the opportunity to speak on the Lisbon treaty tomorrow. There seems to be an automatic assumption that the only positive outcome is a "Yes" vote. It is not democratic to suggest that one has the right to vote as long as one votes "Yes". Similarly, we should not patronise voters by telling them they cannot access a document that is amenable to "a third class child", whatever that is.
Senator Joe O'Toole: I was referring to a child in third class in school.
Senator David Norris: Fine.
An Cathaoirleach: On the Order of Business-----
Senator David Norris: To be fair, a Chathaoirligh, I gave Senator O'Toole advance warning of that little one. He made some arcane whispers to me about the need for a treaty that could be turned over two pages at a time, like the Book of Kells.
Senator Joe O'Toole: We can read one page a day.
Senator David Norris: I have attempted to look at this treaty.
An Cathaoirleach: Other speakers are waiting.
Senator David Norris: The closer I look at it, the less I like it. We know that 96% of it is the failed European constitution. If we are so democratic, why are we the only one of the 27 member states to give voters an opportunity to vote on the treaty? If it is such a wonderful thing and everyone knows it is right, why are we afraid to let people vote? Why do we have a new blossoming of European megalocrats, so to speak, who know better than their own populations? Why are we getting so many conflicting messages? We are being told that our tax advantage, of which many European countries are jealous, will be guarded, even though the leaders of at least two or three major European countries which are in competition with us have convinced themselves they will be able to get rid of it. I do not like the insidious way in which, for example, a European Commissioner who commenced action against the provisions which permitted the churches in this country to get exemption from our equality legislation-----
An Cathaoirleach: We are on the Order of Business.
Senator David Norris: It is an extraordinary thing that the Christian religions should want not to be covered by that legislation.
An Cathaoirleach: The Senator should ask some questions of the Leader.
Senator David Norris: When the Commissioner came to this country, he gave undertakings to a small unrepresentative clique of people in the same way as we got the protocol on abortion in a previous treaty. That is not very democratic. I am making my way through the treaty. I have not yet decided how I will vote, although I am pretty close to deciding on a "No" vote.
An Cathaoirleach: The Senator should ask a question.
Senator David Norris: I am entitled to do that. I will distance myself from anyone who attacks an elected representative. I deplore the attack on Proinsias de Rossa, MEP.
Senator Jim Walsh: Are we having the debate now?
Senator David Norris: I also deplore the condescension that has been doled out to people who may honourably, decently and with integrity take a different view. That is not democracy, nor the Europe in which I want to be.
I want to be in a social Europe, not a neoliberal economic mess.
Senator Eugene Regan: I hope that prior to the finish of the debate on the Lisbon treaty, Senator Norris can be brought around to vote "Yes". He raises an interesting question as to why we will have a referendum in Ireland. It is not for constitutional reasons. It is because we have a tradition of having referenda in light of the Crotty judgment of 1986.
Senator David Norris: We are promised them and half the time they cancel them.


Senator Jim Walsh: In that regard, the Government is not blameless for having, in the first instance, agreed the extraordinary fees which these people are getting, but we must recognise that the chairmen of some of those tribunals in fact used their position in order to act more or less as shop stewards for the wealthy legal profession in extracting-----
(Interruptions).
Senator Alex White: What are we listening to now?
Senator David Norris: That remark should be withdrawn at once.
An Cathaoirleach: Members should confine their comments to questions to the Leader
Senator David Norris: Excuse me, I am sorry, this is a democratic State and that is a most dangerous accusation to make about a legally established body and its chairman. It is outrageous and I demand that it be withdrawn.


Senator David Norris: The Senator has made serious criminal charges.
Senator Jim Walsh: Can I say that the commissions of investigation legislation which was passed by these Houses during the time of the last Government-----


Senator Jim Walsh: -----clearly set down
(Interruptions).
Senator David Norris: I have asked the Cathaoirleach to rule that that remark be withdrawn. Will he give a ruling on it?
An Cathaoirleach: I inform Senator Norris that I have asked Senator Walsh to withdraw his comment.

An Cathaoirleach: If the Senator continues with that, I will adjourn the House.
Senator David Norris: We now have an extremely serious situation. Senator Callanan has said that he is telling the truth, in defiance of the Cathaoirleach's authority. It is a very serious constitutional matter.
Senator Callanan: -----and listen to the bloody airy fairy tales we are getting from over there.


An Cathaoirleach: If the Senator continues with that, I will adjourn the House.
Senator David Norris: We now have an extremely serious situation. Senator Callanan has said that he is telling the truth, in defiance of the Cathaoirleach's authority. It is a very serious constitutional matter.
Senator Callanan: -----and listen to the bloody airy fairy tales we are getting from over there.