Markets in Financial Instruments and Misc. Provisions Bill 2007 - Committee and final stages - 31st October 2007

^ Markets in Financial Instruments and Miscellaneous Provisions Bill 2007:
Committee and Remaining Stages. – 31st October 2007

Senator David Norris: I am very sorry to see my old friend and colleague, the Minister of State, Deputy Batt O'Keeffe, in the hot seat today because he is a thoroughly decent and honourable man. It cannot be a very happy day for him to stand over this squalid business. I also recognise what Senator Boyle said and I salute him for it. He has acknowledged the technical difficulties but he did not go as far as I would have liked into the morality of this because it is the morality which stinks. However, he has done the House a service by pointing out just how insidious this process was. The Green Party is a partner in Government and holds the No. 2 position. However, it was not consulted about this and it is important to state that on the record. It is very damaging.
What kind of Government is it when this kind of material is smuggled in? The reason the Green Party was not told is that it stinks. This is about a snout in the trough and I will label this the snout in the trough amendment. The Minister of State need not shake his head because that is precisely what it is. It is for one person who, as I said on the Order of Business, was so impoverished by circumstances that he did not even notice and apparently believes €37,000 is very little money. Some people live on a lot less than that. He is in receipt of more than €100,000 per annum from the other House and has just been given another €20,000 for being chair of the Oireachtas Committee on Foreign Affairs. I have always had good relations with this gentleman. Perhaps we should address the fact one can get severance plus a pension while one is still serving and in receipt of an income. We are heading into choppy financial waters.

[Senator David Norris]
Is it any wonder people in this country have contempt for politicians? Look at the language of this section, which states:
"(9) On application for a pension under this section to the Minister for Finance, by a person whose entitlement to the pension arose on or after the date of commencement of this section, the pension is payable as of and from a date that the Minister for Finance may determine in writing that is—
(a) not earlier than the date of entitlement, and
(b) not later than the date of the application.
This is laughable. I asked on the Order of Business whether I was in Ireland, which is one little island, or the flying island of Laputa, described by Jonathan Swift as the place where they distilled moonshine from cucumbers. Is there any possibility one could, in one's wildest dreams, have granted a pension earlier than the date of entitlement? Alternatively, could one grant a pension later than the date of application? This is bizarre material and a complete disgrace.
We have been told a garda made a similar application and was denied so this provision has been made specifically for one senior member of Fianna Fáil. I also received a letter from a constituent, with which I will shame the Minister of State by putting it on the record. She writes:
I have just been informed by my local tax office that I am not entitled to a PAYE credit of €1,490 because I am an employee of my husband's business (section 472, Taxes Consolidation Act 1997). I work as a dental practice manager. My hours of work are Monday to Friday, 9 a.m. to 5 p.m., the same as all other employees in the business. I believe I am being discriminated against because of my marital status and this is grossly unfair. I am also not allowed to make PRSI contributions, for the same reason, and this means I have no social welfare entitlements, including sickness benefit, maternity, pension etc.
What about that woman's pension? She would be glad enough with €37,000. The former Minister does not need his pension but forgot all about it. It did not bother him and he did not notice it. In addition, he thinks it is for a small amount. If it is a small amount, let him give it to this woman.
I wonder what happened to Fianna Fáil, the people's party. It is a very bad day for this country when we pass special legislation in the interest of one Member of the other House. It is disgraceful. Hesitation has been expressed on the Government side so I will give them an opportunity to put that into practice by calling a vote on this section. I will also oppose the earlier signature motion this evening.
I wonder if President McAleese, who is a lawyer herself, will feel comfortable signing this nasty little fiddle. Any other citizen would be told that if they did not put in an application on time, they would be in trouble. I have just paid my preliminary tax and received a letter from my accountant saying it had to be in the post to arrive in Limerick by a certain date or I would be fined. I am an Independent Member and not part of the Government but could I, as a Member of the Oireachtas, get special legislation enacted to save me from the financial consequences of my carelessness or forgetfulness? I am completely against the snout in the trough phenomenon and I will vote against the snout in the trough amendment.

Senator John Hanafin: In supporting the Markets in Financial Instruments and Miscellaneous Provisions Bill 2007, and the section we are now discussing, I am conscious of the fact that a pension is not an arbitrary payment, nor a gift. A pension is an entitlement, based on deferred pay. It belongs to the person who has paid his or her contributions.

Senator David Norris: It is a gift now.

Senator John Hanafin: Without interruption, Senator Norris.

Senator David Norris: I will interrupt any time I like. Senator Hanafin is not in the Chair.

An Leas-Chathaoirleach: Senator Hanafin without interruption.

Senator John Hanafin: I am entitled to speak without interruption.

Senator David Norris: Everybody is interrupted. I have even been interrupted myself.

An Leas-Chathaoirleach: Senator Hanafin without interruption.

Senator John Hanafin: A pension is deferred pay and that is a fact of life. It belongs to that person. We are dealing with one section of the Bill which relates to a former Minister and other people who might find themselves in that situation. Notwithstanding that, it behoves us to look at all sections to ensure that people who might miss out do not do so. It is wrong to point the finger at this person. I believe people should have all their entitlements and we should look at the issue because such people have worked for their pension and deferred their pay during their working life to make provision for when they retire or no longer do the job in question. In the future, if people have certain entitlements they should be given a letter from the Department to advise them to apply within a certain date or their circumstances could become very difficult.
We owe the press a service for pointing out this matter. The issue must be dealt with across the board to ensure equity because to prevent one person from getting a pension is wrong. It has given us an opportunity to ensure equity across the board. The Opposition has quite rightly spoken on behalf of a civil servant who lost certain rights but on Second Stage the Opposition did not even speak to the Bill. Not only that, a Senator who has spoken on behalf of civil servants today called certain civil servants liars on the last occasion he spoke. That took me by surprise because in the years I have been in this House, I have rarely heard anybody called a liar. It ill became the Member to call civil servants liars on that occasion.

Senator Liam Twomey: On a point of order, I did not, as Senator Hanafin suggested, call civil servants liars. I believe it might be the politicians in Government who are not telling the truth on this issue. I have doubts about it as I cannot prove the allegations but that is the way this Government works.

Deputy Batt O'Keeffe: The Senator can, however, besmirch innocent people and has no problem in doing so. Nor does his party.

Senator Liam Twomey: I remember dealing with the illegal nursing home charges and the Travers report dealing with billions of euro of taxpayers' money which was lost-----

An Leas-Chathaoirleach: That is not a point of order.

Senator David Norris: Senator Twomey without interruption.

Senator Liam Twomey: My point of order was raised to correct the Senator and put on record that I referred to politicians and not civil servants. I believe civil servants are far more likely to tell the truth than the shower running this country.

Senator David Norris: Hear, hear.

Senator John Hanafin: The Senator proves my point by saying he has no proof but still calls people liars. That is disgraceful.

Senator Liam Twomey: Senator Hanafin should get on his high horse about something which might actually matter.

Deputy Batt O'Keeffe: The Tánaiste and Minister for Finance is at an important Government meeting. The Minister of State at the Department of Finance, Deputy Noel Ahern, is at an official function so I am delighted to have the opportunity to deal with this issue-----

Senator David Norris: The Minister of State is not delighted to be here. That is why he is telling us the other Ministers are elsewhere. The Minister of State would rather be anywhere else.

Deputy Batt O'Keeffe: -----and to deal with it on a logical and truthful basis. The provision brings payment to Ministers into line with civil and public servants who make late applications for a preserved pension. Whether or not an individual case arose, ministerial pensions must be brought into line, irrespective of whether they make a late application, in the same way senior civil servants, to whom we are aligned, can take up a pension if they apply late.
I will deal with a number of issues that have arisen. One concerns the application by the former Minister. It is important to put on record the fact that arrears of pension for the period in question would amount to approximately €75,000, as against the €500,000 which has been touted in the media. A person who is still serving receives an abated pension. It is a two-year issue that is at stake in this instance. I want to comment on some of the terms which have been used during the debate on this case. Words like "morality" and "sneakiness" have been used.

Senator David Norris: Snout in the trough.

Deputy Batt O'Keeffe: Yes. When the former Minister made an application to the officials in the Department of Finance, it became obvious to them that there is an anomaly in the system as it relates to Ministers, as opposed to public and civil servants. The departmental officials recommended to the Minister for Finance that the anomaly should be rectified. The recommendation did not come from the Minister for Finance. The former Minister did not make representations to the Minister for Finance in his own case - that is a fact.
I would like to speak about the subject of transparency as it relates to the issue that has arisen. It is clearly stated in the supplementary information that accompanies the Bill that this is the issue in question. When this issue was being dealt with in the Dáil, Deputy Burton asked whether it applies-----

Senator David Norris: On a point of order, can I ask the Minister of State to help the House by placing on the record the exact words from the explanatory memorandum to which he refers?

An Leas-Chathaoirleach: That is not a point of order.

Senator David Norris: If it is not, I ask the Minister of State to quote from the relevant section anyway.

Deputy Batt O'Keeffe: It is mentioned in the explanatory memorandum.

Senator David Norris: Can we have the words? When I looked for the Bill, we had to send off all over the House to get it. There is no sign of the explanatory memorandum.

Deputy Batt O'Keeffe: If the Senator gets the memorandum, he will find that the reference I have mentioned is in it. I have lost my train of thought.

Senator David Norris: I am sorry.

Deputy Batt O'Keeffe: It is important to note that this issue arose during the debate in the Dáil. If my memory serves me correctly, it was raised by Deputy Burton. When she asked the Minister for Finance if these provisions apply to any former Minister, he specifically said that they do. When Deputy Bruton was asked about this issue yesterday, he acknowledged that it had been discussed in the Dáil. Therefore, I can state categorically that nobody was trying to hide this issue. It was a matter of public knowledge. When Deputy Bruton was interviewed yesterday, he acknowledged that the issue had been debated in the Dáil. There is nothing underhand about it at all.
If a serving Minister makes a late application for a pension, he should be entitled to receive it, just like all other public servants, including the senior civil servants to whom Ministers are aligned in all aspects of these matters. It was agreed by both Houses that the pay and pension rights of Ministers, including pay increases, should be aligned with those of senior civil servants. This measure extends those rights to provide for late applications. Nothing underhand is going on. This is very much above board. Other than those who are taking issue with this proposal because they want to make political fare from it, everybody acknowledges that the former Minister in this case is entitled to equity and should be given his full pension entitlements, even though he made a late application.

Senator David Norris: The Minister of State's coalition partners seem to be a bit queasy.

Deputy Batt O'Keeffe: A number of other issues were raised. Senator Boyle suggested that this issue could be dealt with in the forthcoming finance Bill. However, it could not be addressed in that Bill because it has the status of a money Bill. Other Senators argued that this measure should not be attached to this legislation at all. Given that some other issues are dealt with in the miscellaneous provisions section of the Bill, it is appropriate to resolve this anomaly in this legislation as well. It would hardly have been worthwhile to introduce a separate Bill to cover this issue on its own, when certain supplementary issues were being addressed as part of this legislation. The Minister for Finance has acted with absolute probity and transparency in everything he has done in this instance. Equity is being applied to a former Minister in line with the guidelines covering all other public and civil servants.

Senator Fiona O'Malley: I thank the Minister of State for clarifying a few issues. I am not certain about one thing. The Minister of State indicated that this proposal will bring the rules relating to ministerial pensions into line with the current practices for senior civil and public servants. We heard earlier today about the case of a former senior Garda inspector. I am worried about the distinction that has been drawn. I presume that discretion will be the order of the day here. While I am comforted somewhat by the Minister of State's comments, he has not stated directly that an existing anomaly is being corrected, although he has implied it. I do not like the fact that a senior public servant will not benefit, or be given an advantage, in the same manner as the former Minister in this case.

Deputy Batt O'Keeffe: He has already benefitted.

Senator Fiona O'Malley: He was denied a backdated pension.

Deputy Batt O'Keeffe: If a late application for a pension entitlement is made by a public or civil servant, he or she is entitled to get the full benefit of the pension. In this Bill, the Minister for Finance is regulating to ensure that the same thing that applies to civil and public servants also applies to any Minister.

Senator Fiona O'Malley: What about ordinary citizens? What happens to them when they miss deadlines?

Senator Alan Kelly: What about the ordinary garda?

Deputy Batt O'Keeffe: I can deal only with matters relating to the Minister for Finance. If the Senators want to take up these issues directly with the Minister for Social and Family Affairs, they are welcome to do so. I will address the issues which were raised in respect of the garda, if Senators would like me to do so.

Senator Liam Twomey: Yes.

Senator David Norris: What about the issue I raised?

Deputy Batt O'Keeffe: The former Minister's case is not comparable to the case of the garda that was highlighted in a newspaper article today. The garda in question was dismissed from the force in 1973. At that time, forfeiture of superannuation benefits applied in the case of dismissal. Preservation did not become a feature of the Garda Síochána superannuation scheme until October 1976. Under the terms of the scheme, therefore, the garda in question does not have any superannuation entitlements.

Senator Fiona O'Malley: I have not quite finished. The Minister of State suggested in his reply that it is not necessary to deal with this matter today, which is something that was also inferred by Senator Boyle. We need to make progress with the Bill, but that could be done even if this section were to be withdrawn. I do not want to put ideas into Senator Boyle's head, but I am interested in the notion that this proposal could be withdrawn and discussed at a later stage. The Senator made the very good point that it could be considered in the context of the Green Paper on pensions. Would that be appropriate? Surely there are currently no time constraints in the case of the individual. Is the individual getting any money as things stand? Would the Minister of State consider withdrawing this section of the Bill?

Senator David Norris: Hear, hear

Senator Fiona O'Malley: He could allow the rest of the Bill to go forward and deal with this matter at some future time.

Senator Liam Twomey: I asked the Minister of State to explain the motivation behind this proposal and to outline how this section found its way into the Bill. The Minister of State's comments about the finance Bill were right, but the provision relating to ministerial pensions could be included in the forthcoming social welfare Bill. Perhaps it would not sit easily with the Government to include in that Bill, which will probably provide for social welfare increases of €10 or €12, a measure facilitating the payment of a pension of €30,000 to a sitting Government Deputy who is earning more than €120,000 per annum.
Senator David Norris: I wish to join with other colleagues who have paid tribute to investigative journalism in this case because these journalists have done us all a considerable service. Colleagues will know that I was quite critical of the newspaper industry in the context of the defamation Bill. Many Senators did not have the courage to say very much because they were afraid of the power of the newspapers but I am not afraid of them. However, this instance shows there can be good investigative journalism and it happened without the passage of the defamation Bill or anything like it. This was a case of good investigative journalism. On the issue of the defamation Bill, I challenge the Minister of State to provide an example where investigative journalism was stifled because I do not know of a single instance.
I refer to the explanatory memorandum to the Bill which is as clear as mud. One would need one's attention drawn to this provision. I agree that technically the Government is covered, but it is opaque. I draw the attention of the Minister of State to the fact that his two junior partners in coalition are of the same view. They made it clear.

Deputy Batt O'Keeffe: They changed the mind of one of my partners when she found out the true facts.

Senator David Norris: We have all seen horses getting close to the water but they can be a little bit reluctant to drink; there is a little bit of political hydrophobia hanging around this House. At least she came to the brink of the trough.

Senator Donie Cassidy: Jimmy O'Dea will never be dead.

Senator David Norris: Perhaps it is a good thing she did not shove the snout in because there are plenty of people around here who, at any available trough, whether it contains water or money, will shove their old snouts in for a good snuffle, hoping there will be dollars in it.
I refer to the former Minister, the former Chairman of the Oireachtas Joint Committee on Foreign Affairs, for which he receives a payment of €20,000. We should all be grateful because he did us all a favour, letting the Church off with a couple of hundred million euro and sticking the taxpayer with that amount. We should all be delighted and grateful. I am also grateful for the Minister's clarification of the amount which is €75,000. This is a small amount, a flea bite, according to the Minister.

Senator Jerry Buttimer: It is not a small amount.

Senator David Norris: What we are doing today is shabby. It was an attempt to slip this provision in by sleight of hand and I am very unhappy. I have made the point and others could produce dozens of examples of the anomaly between the way in which a Minister is treated compared with an ordinary citizen. I thought this country was a republic but it is obvious we have an aristocracy which behaves as if it were in the days before the French Revolution.
I have never exchanged a cross word with the Minister involved. I have no problem with him but I have a terrible problem with slyness and greed. I heard him remark that when one discovers anomalies in the law, one rectifies them. We all know this is not the case and it is not true. When the time comes for the budget, submissions are made by groups representing the disabled, the blind, cystic fibrosis sufferers and so on. I refer to Susie Long, who died because she was sentenced to death for the crime of poverty, as I stated six months ago. This was an anomaly in the health service but we did not rush. It was not just a question of €75,000 here or there or a small sum of €35,000 which we did not notice until two years later; this was a question of life or death. It is not correct to say that we as legislators have shown anything like the same alacrity in ironing out the anomalies that arise when they affect ordinary people but when they affect one of our own, my God, there is a sudden rush of draftsmanship and the introduction of legislation.
This section should be withdrawn for further discussion and I ask the Minister of State to do so.

Senator David Norris: I am afraid this is getting sleazier and sleazier. We are now told from the Government side that the Opposition in the Dáil was asleep on the job, that its forensic skills were not up to it and that it was not wide awake.

Deputy Batt O'Keeffe: Senators were told anything but. The Opposition was wide awake and raised the issue.

An Leas-Chathaoirleach: Senator Norris without interruption.

Senator David Norris: The Minister of State should check the record. I am not saying the Minister of State said it. He should check the record. That was said by a spokesperson for the Government on the other side of the House. I made notes of it. The Minister of State cannot challenge it. It is on the record.

Deputy Batt O'Keeffe: I made it quite clear they were awake.

Senator David Norris: The Minister of State may have. I have said he is a decent person who would like to be anywhere but where he is at the moment, for which I do not blame him.

Deputy Batt O'Keeffe: I was giving the Opposition credit.

Senator David Norris: A speaker on the Government Front Bench less than five minutes ago said the Opposition in the Dáil was asleep, its forensic skills were not up to it and it was not wide awake. That tells us that the Government was doing its damnedest to slip something by. It is obvious. We are not complete eejits in this House, whatever about the other place. I have managed with great difficulty to locate the explanatory memorandum, which states:
Section 16 amends the Ministerial pensions legislation. Currently, a pension is payable if the former office holder applies for it within six months of becoming eligible for it; otherwise, it is payable from the date of application [that is the present state]. This amendment will allow for payment to be backdated to a date not earlier than the date of entitlement.
How, for God Almighty's sake, could it be backdated before the date of entitlement? There may be some arcane reason for it that I do not understand. It is clear that the Government is making a special case to backdate a pension that was not applied for. The explanatory memorandum continues:
It also brings the qualifying requirements for a Ministerial pension under the ''old'' (i.e. pre-1993) pension scheme into line with the provisions of the current pension scheme. In effect, it provides for payment of a Ministerial pension to a member of the pre-1993 scheme who has more than two years service as a Minister. This has been the position for members of the current scheme since 2001.
That is a separate item. There is an attempt to blur that by running the two together in what is being said from the Government side. It was interesting to hear the Leader of the House, Senator Donie Cassidy, trying another little rub that will show on the sleaze indicator. He said to the Opposition: "Ask your own crowd. Were they the only ones? Ask your own crowd". In other words, there might be a bit left in the trough for a few Opposition snouts to get to work on. That is the kind of politics we are at. He appears to be laughing at the fact that the Opposition did not notice it going through. It was the Opposition's fault. It was asleep on the job, it did not have the forensic skills and asked the wrong questions. However, he suggests not doing anything about it because there is a bit of gravy left in the trough for the Opposition Members to snuffle around in. I do not regard that as very elevated morality, but who am I?

Deputy Batt O'Keeffe: I reiterate that there is absolutely no sleight of hand. There are a number of miscellaneous provisions in the Bill including this one. On Second Stage the Tánaiste stated:
Section 16 makes amendments to the provisions dealing with ministerial pensions, as follows. First, former office holders - Ministers and Ministers of State - on leaving service are entitled to receive severance for up to two years. Circumstances can arise where, through oversight or otherwise, a former officer holder does not apply for the pension within the specified time period, namely, within six months of severance payments ending. The amendment would give the Minister for Finance the discretion to backdate the payment of pension in the case of an application made outside the six-month limit to the date of entitlement and reflects a similar provision which applies to Civil Service pensions.
In effect-----

Senator David Norris: Does it apply to Irish Shipping?

Deputy Batt O'Keeffe: -----the Senator is accusing the audience - thanks be to God we are denuded of an audience - of being dumb, which I would never say.

Senator David Norris: That is very interesting. The Minister of State has said that thanks be to God there is nobody present in the Visitors Gallery and the public does not know about this measure. That is the way he would like to keep it.

Deputy Batt O'Keeffe: The Senator said that this is getting murkier and murkier. I read out the chronology of events, which is apparent and open. The Tánaiste and Minister for Finance in everything he did was absolutely above board. He read it into the record of the House. It is included in the Bill itself. It was raised in the Dáil. It was dealt with and answered in a positive way by saying that a former Minister is affected.

Senator David Norris: Why is the Minister of State glad the Visitors Gallery is empty?

An Leas-Chathaoirleach: The Minister of State without interruption.

Deputy Batt O'Keeffe: There is no sleight of hand here. It is as transparent as could be. I am astonished that the Senator, the upholder of rights, on this occasion would deny the right to a politician because he is a politician.

Senator David Norris: Break my heart.

An Leas-Chathaoirleach: The Minister of State without interruption.

Deputy Batt O'Keeffe: That is exactly what he is saying.

Senator Jerry Buttimer: The Minister of State is wrong.

Senator David Norris: I have heard everything now.

Senator Jerry Buttimer: Senator Norris did not say that.

An Leas-Chathaoirleach: The question is that section 16-----

Senator Liam Twomey: None of our questions has been answered. I asked if any other anomalies are floating around the Department of Finance.

Deputy Batt O'Keeffe: We are not aware of any other comparable anomaly in the Department at the moment. The garda case is not a similar case in any circumstances.

Senator Liam Twomey: There is considerable correspondence.

(Interruptions).

Question put.